A gamble, your opinion?

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thank you and I realize that my question is impossible to reply but you actually confirmed that many of the kinatah blades shown in the book "Keris Jawa" are recent pieces. Upon my return I will try to show more specimens of kinatah emas blades and I encourage other members to do the same just for sharing this nice art work, whether old or not.
Regards

[VANDOO]

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING, A BIT OVER MY HEAD AS ONE NOT TOO SCHOOLED IN THE KERIS BUT INTERESTING AND I CAN CERTIANLY ENJOY THE PICTURES ALONG WITH EVERYONE.
THE ONE EXAMPLE PICTURED INCORPORATES 4 DIFFERENT ANIMALS AND COVERS THE BLADE FROM FORTE TO TIP. IS THIS A RECENT EXAMPLE WHERE THE ARTIST WANTED TO INCORPORATE AS MANY HONORS AS POSSIBLE ON ONE BLADE? I SUSPECT THIS WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE ON A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AS EACH METAL /HONOR WOULD LIKELY BE AWARDED SEPARATELY NOT LUMPED TOGETHER. THIS LOOKS ALL RIGHT AS ART BUT WOULD IT BE LIKELY AS AN HONOR AWARDED?.
WHAT ANIMALS ARE TRADITIONALY USED? THE EXAMPLE STATED ABOVE HAS A LION,DEER, WATER BUFFALOW OR COW AND AN ELEPHANT. THE ONLY OTHER ONES I CAN THINK OF ARE NAGAS/ DRAGONS AND PEOPLE OR BUDDA. ARE THESE THE ONLY TRADITIONAL DESIGNS USED OR ARE THERE OTHERS?
DOES THE FLORAL DESIGNS REPRESENT SOME HONOR OR ARE THEY THERE JUST TO EMBELISH THE DESIGN AND HONORED FIGURES.
THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW MUCH ALWAYS ASK THE MOST QUESTIONS
HOPEFULLY AT BEST THEY WILL BE GOOD QUESTIONS.

[Sajen]

Have received the keris and it is not so good as supposed but also not bad as many I have seen before. Here some first fast taken pictures.

[Sajen]

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

[Sajen]

And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade.

[Sajen]

By this blade i am unsure. I think that the blade is original but the gold is newly reworked.

[Sajen]

And here recent Madura work.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

By this blade i am unsure. I think that the blade is original but the gold is newly reworked.

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for the detailed pictures. This specimen is interesting because I am not sure that the Singo Barong is original to the blade: from the pictures there seems to be a discontinuity in the pamor lines at the interface of the blade and the singa, the pamor lines of the singa look denser than on the blade itself and the colour of the iron is a bit different. So the singa may have been welded later on the blade, what do you think?
I have a similar Singo Barong blade but it is more difficult to determine if the singa is more recent than the blade or not because it is more covered by gold, I will send detailed pictures in the next days.
This is my impression from the pictures but other opinions are of course welcome!
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

And here, since Jean asked for, pictures of an IMHO old kinatah blade.

This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure appears to my eyes to be a much later addition, as then would be the kinatah. Doesn't seem like the type of workmanship i would expect from older kinatah, though the material may well be real gold.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure appears to my eyes to be a much later addition, as then would be the kinatah. Doesn't seem like the type of workmanship i would expect from older kinatah, though the material may well be real gold.

Good possible but the figure and with it the kinatah work is certainly not added recently, have a look to the gonjo where the gold is majoritarian gone. This blade isn't a great work of art but the kinatah is done with 22 carat gold when I remember correct.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

This may be an "old" blade", but the winged figure .....

BTW, I think that the "winged figure" is a nymph, a blade with a similar gandhik figure is shown in "Keris Jawa antara Mistik dan Nalar" from Haryono Haryoguritno on page 167 (Gbr. 4.20r) labeled as gandhik WIDADARI. Widadari is a heaven nymph so far I know.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The kinatah seems to be from brass and very thin gold washed.

Hello Detlef,
You may test the presence of gold at a jeweller's shop or by using a gold test kit. I don't see clearly the presence of brass on these pictures as the kinatah looks shiny. May be low carat and thin gold coat? High gold content kinatah (22 kt) has a deeper colour.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
You may test the presence of gold at a jeweller's shop or by using a gold test kit. I don't see clearly the presence of brass on these pictures as the kinatah looks shiny. May be low carat and thin gold coat? High gold content kinatah (22 kt) has a deeper colour.
Regards

Hello Jean,

have a look at the last picture, at the gonjo you can clearly see the brass at some places where the gold is gone. And I have cleaned the green copper compound which is clearly a sign for brass.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

have a look at the last picture, at the gonjo you can clearly see the brass at some places where the gold is gone. And I have cleaned the green copper compound which is clearly a sign for brass.

Regards,

Detlef

OK Detlef, you cleaned it very well!