A warrior's keris

nechesh · 19th December 2004, 04:47 PM

Well Ron, you seem to have missed my point on a couple of levels. One is that the primary function of the keris has evolved over the centuries and not in the same manner in all parts of the Malay area. There have also been different types of keris made specifically for different functions. Keris sajen and keris picit for instance were certainly not made as battle worthy blades. Many other blades were made to be purely talismanic and as time pasted the majority of keris became magickal/artistic/status cultural items rather than weapons of war. But it is my understanding that certain cultures within Indonesia were more apt to use the keris as a weapon than others, the Bugis among them and in Bali to some extent. I would love to hear factual and sustainable evidence either way on this issue.
And perhaps you did not understand my comments about pitch. It is a substance that was used to "glue" a keris to it's hilt when a stronger bond than a piece of cloth wrapped around the pesi was necessary (i.e. in battle). The hilt is then secure and the keris can be safely pulled back without worry. By heating the blade the pitch will become soft and the wilah can then be seperated from the hulu if the owner chooses. As i stated, one of my Bali keris came to me this way. There are substainal nicks on the ridge of the sogokan that look like the blade parried a sharp object at one time, and the end of the blade was broken off at some point (this appears to be an old repair) and reshaped to create a shorter keris. Now, all this damage might have taken place during some cultural/social function, but it seems to me unlikely. Keep in mind that, not unlike the English and the French in their wars in the Americas, the Dutch were very good at getting various Indonesian tribes to fight on there side against their Indonesian brothers, so the keris bearer was not always up against a well armed dutch soldier, but may end up fighting another keris bearer.
Certainly, for the most part, you are correct that the main function of the keris has become non-military. But you simply can not discount that some keris have been used in battle and were meant to be used that way.

ronpakis · 20th December 2004, 01:36 PM

Hello nescesh,

i did not missed your point i can agree to a certain level, the bugis and balinese used keris sometimes as a weapon but to my opinion this only happened when there was nothing else at hands. In the tropenmuseum in amsterdam there is a balinese keris of the absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc, it was captured during the attack of the dutch at bali somewhere late 19 century or early 20th. the officer who took it was attacked by a balinese man with it. he used it because it was his last savier (this last is my interpretation why use such a keris for any other purpose than defend your life).
myself i have a maduran keris wich is rather large with pamor and more important to this subject: the blade was heated for about 30 cm, like japanese blades. Of course this happened to make it stronger and sharper. you can clearly see the spots where the clay didnt protect the steel anymore. it is extremely sharp but it is impossible to use it as a slasher because the peksi would break and this hardening is not needed for thrusting. (this raises yet another question.........)
i also know what pitch is used for but it is not proved to be put there by the first owner. it could be a later addition for example when the dutch attacked bali, and the use "whatever you have" spirit came up!
most bali keris handles are big, now i'm not small 1,88 cm long, normal hands, and those grips are to large for my hands, (not to hold but to use) most indonesain men are at least to my opinion smaller than the average western guy > smaller hands.
as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right.
You are right when you are saying that the dutch used the locals against their own people, but did they make keris for this purpose or did they use their "own" keris?
so my conclusion would be: used as a weapon? possible, but only when there is nothing else at hands, definitly not created for this purpose.

About the shortening of the blade: there are a lot of keris who are shortened, to my opinion this was possibly done because the keris was partly damaged by corrosion. dirt and perhaps water in the sheath, destroyed the point. to make it look better just cut a bit of.

i'm not saying you are wrong but i just have my doubts.

have a nice christmas!!

BluErf · 20th December 2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronpakis

...
as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right...

Hi Ronpakis, the Bugis pistol grip handle is probably one of the earliest studies in ergonomics. It is perfectly made for thrusting. It moulds into the hand and keeps it in a comfortable postion for delivering a strong thrust.

You can look at the pistol grips on epee and foil blades for modern fencing. Its the same principle.

Just to be sure, pardon me for asking, but has anyone shared with you how the bugis keris handle is held correctly?

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

ronpakis · 20th December 2004, 07:06 PM

hi blu,

well i have handled several bugi keris and i just cant find a way to properly hold it. i think i have read some information about this subject before and i tried it on my own bugi (standard pistol grip). perhaps it is just me who is clumsy with bugi handles.
a well, i dont think we are going te reach consensus on this one but thats no problem. so many collectors so many ideas.
ps
I dont mind you asking, i would like you to write the proper way, maby i have not tried this one. i will try it and let you know.

best wishes

Henk · 20th December 2004, 07:39 PM

Ronpakis,

Did you ever compared the size of our big european dutch hands with the small tiny hands of an inhabitant of Indonesia? That's why we have some trouble with handling a bugis keris.
If you keep that difference in mind the remark of BluErf makes sense.

Mick · 20th December 2004, 07:48 PM

Ronpakis

Using the Bugis keris is easier if you have the handle mounted properly. The proper mounting is with the handle is facing 90 degrees from the plane of the blade. That is turned out when the keris is carried on the body not to the front or rear as it often is in storage do to space limitations. When the handle is installed correctly and the keris is drawn, the handle fits in your hand like a pistol grip. The thumb and forfinger pinch the blade on both sides of the front to direct the strike while the palm of the hand against the back of the grip allows you to put power into the strike with a shove.

nechesh · 20th December 2004, 10:54 PM

Well Ronpakis, if you are not missing my point you are, at least, missing the correct spelling of my name.

Obviously a keris of the "absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc" is NOT one that is meant for combat. To use this keris to make your point doesn't work for me. And not all Bali hulu are excessively large. Try one of the simpler hilt, like the type that has cord or hair wrapping on the grip. And pitch is no last minute improv used in spirit of the moment. It has been known and used as an excellent adhesive in the area for centuries. There are different types of keris for people in all walks of life. Jewel encrusted gold keris for royalty, keris to help the crops grow for farmers, keris for prosperity for the merchant, keris of deep mystical significance for the dukun and yes, keris for combat for the warrior. You don't have to believe it, but you might want to consider it.

As for your thought that my shortened blade may have been cut down due to corrosion, well, it's possible, but there is not a spot of corrosion or rust anywhere on the remaining blade and judging from the blade itself, i would guess it lost a good 4-5 inches, not just a tip. It is about 12" now, but it's meaty and was probably once 16-17 in. It's sharp and could easily punch a hole into the side of your car. An edged weapon doesn't need to be a slasher to be an effective killer.
Obviously the Dutch did not make keris for the locals they pitted against each other, they would use there own, and of course many other types of edged weapons were used and probably preferred. But i don't see your point in this statement.
And i must agree with Blu and Mick, you are obviously not holding your Bugis keris correctly if you find it clumsy, but if you follow Henk's instructions, with a little practice you should be able to defend yourself quite well. Have a very Blessed Solstice.

Raja Muda · 21st December 2004, 05:10 AM

Greetings gentlemen and a happy solstice to you too Neschech,
I've been following the rest of the thread with interest, especially the long debate on whether the keris remains a combat weapon or is simply a symbolic, talismanic cultural object.
Perhaps if we look at it from the Malay and maybe Bugis perspective, the keris is still seen primarily as a weapon with an added talismanic function.
If the number of perguruan silat or martial arts school that still teach keris fighting techniques is anything to go by, then, this might offer some clue to how widespread the use of the keris was as a weapon, at least in the Malay states of the peninsula and Sumatera.
Strange thing is, more emphasis is given by some schools to keris techniques than say that of parang, klewang etc, other more efficient hand weapons.
So, is keris a weapon of last resort? Maybe so. But the amount of training needed before a warrior can start wielding a keris effictively and the vast number of techniques taught speaks volumes of the place of the keris in the Malay martial arts world.
One the other side of the coin, from my conversations with a silat instructor, I gathered that very few Javanese perguruans still employ the keris in their combat techniques. Perhaps the Javanese may prefer other bladed weapons but that doesn't mean they've dispensed with the keris totally I guess.

20th December 2004, 07:06 PM	#4
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	ergonomics in keris handles hi blu, well i have handled several bugi keris and i just cant find a way to properly hold it. i think i have read some information about this subject before and i tried it on my own bugi (standard pistol grip). perhaps it is just me who is clumsy with bugi handles. a well, i dont think we are going te reach consensus on this one but thats no problem. so many collectors so many ideas. ps I dont mind you asking, i would like you to write the proper way, maby i have not tried this one. i will try it and let you know. best wishes

21st December 2004, 05:10 AM	#8
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Keris as killing tool Greetings gentlemen and a happy solstice to you too Neschech, I've been following the rest of the thread with interest, especially the long debate on whether the keris remains a combat weapon or is simply a symbolic, talismanic cultural object. Perhaps if we look at it from the Malay and maybe Bugis perspective, the keris is still seen primarily as a weapon with an added talismanic function. If the number of perguruan silat or martial arts school that still teach keris fighting techniques is anything to go by, then, this might offer some clue to how widespread the use of the keris was as a weapon, at least in the Malay states of the peninsula and Sumatera. Strange thing is, more emphasis is given by some schools to keris techniques than say that of parang, klewang etc, other more efficient hand weapons. So, is keris a weapon of last resort? Maybe so. But the amount of training needed before a warrior can start wielding a keris effictively and the vast number of techniques taught speaks volumes of the place of the keris in the Malay martial arts world. One the other side of the coin, from my conversations with a silat instructor, I gathered that very few Javanese perguruans still employ the keris in their combat techniques. Perhaps the Javanese may prefer other bladed weapons but that doesn't mean they've dispensed with the keris totally I guess.

19th December 2004, 04:47 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Ron, you seem to have missed my point on a couple of levels. One is that the primary function of the keris has evolved over the centuries and not in the same manner in all parts of the Malay area. There have also been different types of keris made specifically for different functions. Keris sajen and keris picit for instance were certainly not made as battle worthy blades. Many other blades were made to be purely talismanic and as time pasted the majority of keris became magickal/artistic/status cultural items rather than weapons of war. But it is my understanding that certain cultures within Indonesia were more apt to use the keris as a weapon than others, the Bugis among them and in Bali to some extent. I would love to hear factual and sustainable evidence either way on this issue. And perhaps you did not understand my comments about pitch. It is a substance that was used to "glue" a keris to it's hilt when a stronger bond than a piece of cloth wrapped around the pesi was necessary (i.e. in battle). The hilt is then secure and the keris can be safely pulled back without worry. By heating the blade the pitch will become soft and the wilah can then be seperated from the hulu if the owner chooses. As i stated, one of my Bali keris came to me this way. There are substainal nicks on the ridge of the sogokan that look like the blade parried a sharp object at one time, and the end of the blade was broken off at some point (this appears to be an old repair) and reshaped to create a shorter keris. Now, all this damage might have taken place during some cultural/social function, but it seems to me unlikely. Keep in mind that, not unlike the English and the French in their wars in the Americas, the Dutch were very good at getting various Indonesian tribes to fight on there side against their Indonesian brothers, so the keris bearer was not always up against a well armed dutch soldier, but may end up fighting another keris bearer. Certainly, for the most part, you are correct that the main function of the keris has become non-military. But you simply can not discount that some keris have been used in battle and were meant to be used that way.

20th December 2004, 01:36 PM	#2
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	Hello nescesh, i did not missed your point i can agree to a certain level, the bugis and balinese used keris sometimes as a weapon but to my opinion this only happened when there was nothing else at hands. In the tropenmuseum in amsterdam there is a balinese keris of the absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc, it was captured during the attack of the dutch at bali somewhere late 19 century or early 20th. the officer who took it was attacked by a balinese man with it. he used it because it was his last savier (this last is my interpretation why use such a keris for any other purpose than defend your life). myself i have a maduran keris wich is rather large with pamor and more important to this subject: the blade was heated for about 30 cm, like japanese blades. Of course this happened to make it stronger and sharper. you can clearly see the spots where the clay didnt protect the steel anymore. it is extremely sharp but it is impossible to use it as a slasher because the peksi would break and this hardening is not needed for thrusting. (this raises yet another question.........) i also know what pitch is used for but it is not proved to be put there by the first owner. it could be a later addition for example when the dutch attacked bali, and the use "whatever you have" spirit came up! most bali keris handles are big, now i'm not small 1,88 cm long, normal hands, and those grips are to large for my hands, (not to hold but to use) most indonesain men are at least to my opinion smaller than the average western guy > smaller hands. as for bugis: the pistol like grip is not a very logical solution if you are planning to stab someone. it just does not fit your hands right. You are right when you are saying that the dutch used the locals against their own people, but did they make keris for this purpose or did they use their "own" keris? so my conclusion would be: used as a weapon? possible, but only when there is nothing else at hands, definitly not created for this purpose. About the shortening of the blade: there are a lot of keris who are shortened, to my opinion this was possibly done because the keris was partly damaged by corrosion. dirt and perhaps water in the sheath, destroyed the point. to make it look better just cut a bit of. i'm not saying you are wrong but i just have my doubts. have a nice christmas!!

20th December 2004, 07:39 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Ronpakis, Did you ever compared the size of our big european dutch hands with the small tiny hands of an inhabitant of Indonesia? That's why we have some trouble with handling a bugis keris. If you keep that difference in mind the remark of BluErf makes sense.

20th December 2004, 07:48 PM	#6
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Ronpakis Using the Bugis keris is easier if you have the handle mounted properly. The proper mounting is with the handle is facing 90 degrees from the plane of the blade. That is turned out when the keris is carried on the body not to the front or rear as it often is in storage do to space limitations. When the handle is installed correctly and the keris is drawn, the handle fits in your hand like a pistol grip. The thumb and forfinger pinch the blade on both sides of the front to direct the strike while the palm of the hand against the back of the grip allows you to put power into the strike with a shove.

20th December 2004, 10:54 PM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well Ronpakis, if you are not missing my point you are, at least, missing the correct spelling of my name. Obviously a keris of the "absolut highest rank, with gold, gems, etc" is NOT one that is meant for combat. To use this keris to make your point doesn't work for me. And not all Bali hulu are excessively large. Try one of the simpler hilt, like the type that has cord or hair wrapping on the grip. And pitch is no last minute improv used in spirit of the moment. It has been known and used as an excellent adhesive in the area for centuries. There are different types of keris for people in all walks of life. Jewel encrusted gold keris for royalty, keris to help the crops grow for farmers, keris for prosperity for the merchant, keris of deep mystical significance for the dukun and yes, keris for combat for the warrior. You don't have to believe it, but you might want to consider it. As for your thought that my shortened blade may have been cut down due to corrosion, well, it's possible, but there is not a spot of corrosion or rust anywhere on the remaining blade and judging from the blade itself, i would guess it lost a good 4-5 inches, not just a tip. It is about 12" now, but it's meaty and was probably once 16-17 in. It's sharp and could easily punch a hole into the side of your car. An edged weapon doesn't need to be a slasher to be an effective killer. Obviously the Dutch did not make keris for the locals they pitted against each other, they would use there own, and of course many other types of edged weapons were used and probably preferred. But i don't see your point in this statement. And i must agree with Blu and Mick, you are obviously not holding your Bugis keris correctly if you find it clumsy, but if you follow Henk's instructions, with a little practice you should be able to defend yourself quite well. Have a very Blessed Solstice.