Guess this Indian sword

[Oriental-Arms]

Few comments if I may:

We came across several similar swords. See for example:



I purchased the upper sword in Udaipur, Rajhastan. The dealer that sold it to us called it Sousson pata (which I agreed) and told us that it is from Rajhastan. The lower one was purchased in the U.S. Its scabbard is now in restoration but please notice the similarities of the fittings to the one shown by Jens, especially the scabbard tip. Both have the Islamic style handle, and both are richly decorated with gold and silver inlay (so I believe is the sword from the Hyderabad museum but it is difficult to see). Both swords has a strong T spine, very similar to Yataghan blades in shape and dimensions, and both have a short ricasso which ones never find on a Turkish Yataghan.



Both blades are forged from high quality wootz steel:





A third similar sword I believe is with Dr. Lee Jones, and I hope Lee can post few photos. This one is of particular interest as the blade is forged from pattern welded steel in the structure known as Turkish Ribbon. It is composed of several strips of twisted steel bars (Turkish stars) forged welded together. We have seen twisted steel on many swords, from Europe to Indonesia. But Turkish Ribbon was so popular on Ottoman swords from the late 17 to the early 19 C. and it is so typical that it is almost screaming I was made in Turkey . What is more interesting about Lee’s sword is that it also has a Ricasso, and the blade is gold inlaid with Indian style decoration.

All this strengthen the Turkish connection. I am almost sure that Lee’s sword was made in Turkey for the Indian market. (Lee, few photos please…)

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Jens, maybe we should revise the dictionaries , I wouldve gone for the sossun pata but you preffer "sailaba" ... I remember the time before this it was the "khurasani" ...
What exactly makes a "sailaba" a "sailaba" and not a "sossun pata" ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

[Oriental-Arms]

Regarding the names, it is of no importance what Jens calls it or me or any other collector calls it. What matters is what were the original owners calling it. And Jens is absolutely correct. It could have a different name in different parts of India. My intuition is that the name Sailaba somehow comes from Turkey, which strengthen the Turkish connection of these beautiful and interesting swords.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood’s book Hindu Arms and Ritual, I found this interesting comment on the Sailaba on page 260.

Sailaba. Short Muslim sword with a forward curved blade from Hyderabad (Deccan). ….. The weapon is identical to the sosun pattah and probably derives from the yataghan which is the earlier weapon. Irvin gives sailabah-I-qalmaqi, a knife as long as a sword with a walrus ivory grip, used by the men of Kashgar.

[ariel]

It took only 8 years , but it just occurred to me , that Sailaba may be another version of phonetic transliteration of "Selaava", the local name for what the Brits designated as "Khyber knife".
If that is correct, and taking into account frequent construction of the Khyber knife with a (slightly) recurved blade, we may finally understand where the term "Salawar yataghan" came from.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I just read this thread once more, as I had forgotten most of the discussion.

Jim, you are in trouble, deep trouble, but I will let you off the hook this time, as very few knows this. You wrote in post 13, "These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan". Wrong - these is also a Hyderabad in Sind (Pakistan) - but it is not very well known, so adding Deccan removes any doubt about from where it is.

Ariel, it is nine years ago I wrote the thread, and I was amazed that you found it, how many had a look at it.
I dont know from where the word Sailaba origins, but I tend to believe that it is of Turkish origin, as the Turkish influence was very strong in Deccan.
Unfortunately I dont know much, hardly anything, about the origin of the different words, other that it seem as if many of te European words come from Sanskrit.

Jens

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields.


I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer.

Yes, Jens' guess is as good as ever.
Sailaba is not exactly a Turkish word, but a Turkic one. Turkic people ( Kazakh, South Siberian) had short swords called Selebe or Selava. Their migration to Afghanistan gave name of Selaavah to what we call Khyber Knife, and to Deccan,- sailaba.
Here is a schematic drawing of the Kazakh " selebe" by a brilliant Kazakh ethographer Jokan Valikhanov ( sp.) , 19th century

Russian army adopted this short sword ( saber) for unter-officers , called them Suleba.

[ariel]

And here is a real old Kazakh selebe.