Guess this Indian sword

Jens Nordlunde · 8th May 2005, 04:52 PM

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields

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I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer

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Oriental-Arms · 8th May 2005, 05:34 PM

Regarding the names, it is of no importance what Jens calls it or me or any other collector calls it. What matters is what were the original owners calling it. And Jens is absolutely correct. It could have a different name in different parts of India. My intuition is that the name Sailaba somehow comes from Turkey, which strengthen the Turkish connection of these beautiful and interesting swords.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd July 2006, 04:18 PM

In Robert Elgood’s book Hindu Arms and Ritual, I found this interesting comment on the Sailaba on page 260.

Sailaba. Short Muslim sword with a forward curved blade from Hyderabad (Deccan). ….. The weapon is identical to the sosun pattah and probably derives from the yataghan which is the earlier weapon. Irvin gives sailabah-I-qalmaqi, a knife as long as a sword with a walrus ivory grip, used by the men of Kashgar.

ariel · 26th December 2014, 06:08 AM

It took only 8 years

, but it just occurred to me , that Sailaba may be another version of phonetic transliteration of "Selaava", the local name for what the Brits designated as "Khyber knife".
If that is correct, and taking into account frequent construction of the Khyber knife with a (slightly) recurved blade, we may finally understand where the term "Salawar yataghan" came from.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th December 2014, 03:49 PM

I just read this thread once more, as I had forgotten most of the discussion.

Jim, you are in trouble, deep trouble, but I will let you off the hook this time, as very few knows this

. You wrote in post 13, "These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan". Wrong - these is also a Hyderabad in Sind (Pakistan) - but it is not very well known, so adding Deccan removes any doubt about from where it is.

Ariel, it is nine years ago I wrote the thread, and I was amazed that you found it, how many had a look at it.
I dont know from where the word Sailaba origins, but I tend to believe that it is of Turkish origin, as the Turkish influence was very strong in Deccan.
Unfortunately I dont know much, hardly anything, about the origin of the different words, other that it seem as if many of te European words come from Sanskrit.

Jens

ariel · 26th December 2014, 08:38 PM

I asked my Turkish colleague, but she could not recall anything resembling that name.
Well, she is woman, and a pacifist to boot :-)

AJ1356 · 27th December 2014, 01:41 AM

Sailaba is probably a misnomer, Sailab means flood, but sailawa is the name of what everyone in Afghanistan call a khayber knife. This piece looks like a yataghan blade with a indian hilt, even the writings are similar to other yataghans. there are many instances of where indian had taken foriegn blades and added an indian hilt to them.

ariel · 11th November 2022, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India.

Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields

.

I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer

.

Yes, Jens' guess is as good as ever.
Sailaba is not exactly a Turkish word, but a Turkic one. Turkic people ( Kazakh, South Siberian) had short swords called Selebe or Selava. Their migration to Afghanistan gave name of Selaavah to what we call Khyber Knife, and to Deccan,- sailaba.
Here is a schematic drawing of the Kazakh " selebe" by a brilliant Kazakh ethographer Jokan Valikhanov ( sp.) , 19th century

Russian army adopted this short sword ( saber) for unter-officers , called them Suleba.

ariel · 11th November 2022, 03:26 AM

And here is a real old Kazakh selebe.

8th May 2005, 04:52 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I dunno, maybe sailaba is a Turkish word, maybe the name for it in south India or maybe it has something to do with the T spine – I really don’t know. Sailaba was what they called it in the catalogue. Maybe Artzi knows, although he did not comment on the name. Someone wrote to me recently and said that he did not care much for all these fancy names, he would call it a sossun pata, then people knew what he was talking about – maybe we should too, but remembering that the different swords can have different names in the different parts of India. Btw in Sind it means flooding the fields. I see you have changed your hairstyle, your hair is longer. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 8th May 2005 at 05:02 PM.

26th December 2014, 03:49 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I just read this thread once more, as I had forgotten most of the discussion. Jim, you are in trouble, deep trouble, but I will let you off the hook this time, as very few knows this. You wrote in post 13, "These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan". Wrong - these is also a Hyderabad in Sind (Pakistan) - but it is not very well known, so adding Deccan removes any doubt about from where it is. Ariel, it is nine years ago I wrote the thread, and I was amazed that you found it, how many had a look at it. I dont know from where the word Sailaba origins, but I tend to believe that it is of Turkish origin, as the Turkish influence was very strong in Deccan. Unfortunately I dont know much, hardly anything, about the origin of the different words, other that it seem as if many of te European words come from Sanskrit. Jens

11th November 2022, 03:26 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And here is a real old Kazakh selebe. Attached Images

8th May 2005, 05:34 PM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Regarding the names, it is of no importance what Jens calls it or me or any other collector calls it. What matters is what were the original owners calling it. And Jens is absolutely correct. It could have a different name in different parts of India. My intuition is that the name *Sailaba* somehow comes from Turkey, which strengthen the Turkish connection of these beautiful and interesting swords.

22nd July 2006, 04:18 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Robert Elgood’s book Hindu Arms and Ritual, I found this interesting comment on the Sailaba on page 260. Sailaba. Short Muslim sword with a forward curved blade from Hyderabad (Deccan). ….. The weapon is identical to the sosun pattah and probably derives from the yataghan which is the earlier weapon. Irvin gives sailabah-I-qalmaqi, a knife as long as a sword with a walrus ivory grip, used by the men of Kashgar.

26th December 2014, 06:08 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It took only 8 years , but it just occurred to me , that Sailaba may be another version of phonetic transliteration of "Selaava", the local name for what the Brits designated as "Khyber knife". If that is correct, and taking into account frequent construction of the Khyber knife with a (slightly) recurved blade, we may finally understand where the term "Salawar yataghan" came from.

26th December 2014, 08:38 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I asked my Turkish colleague, but she could not recall anything resembling that name. Well, she is woman, and a pacifist to boot :-)

27th December 2014, 01:41 AM	#7
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Sailaba is probably a misnomer, Sailab means flood, but sailawa is the name of what everyone in Afghanistan call a khayber knife. This piece looks like a yataghan blade with a indian hilt, even the writings are similar to other yataghans. there are many instances of where indian had taken foriegn blades and added an indian hilt to them.