Guess this Indian sword

Jens Nordlunde · 5th May 2005, 06:38 PM

Hi Jeff,

Why do you ask? The catalogue says 1194 H., so I have to believe in it - this should be about 1780 our time.
Btw I see on another thread that you have chosen to show a weapon - in detail - shame on you, I thought I had the rights

.

Best
jens

Jeff D · 5th May 2005, 06:47 PM

Hi Jens,

I am trying to learn to read Arabic dates and if you look at the detailed photo of the blade that you posted , on the right side you see signs that look like this; '119V' . I think that is the date but V is arabic for 7.
As for the Nordlundesque photo's, you may have been the first and possibly the best at it, but you don't have exclusive rights! ask Wolviex.

.

All the Best.
Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 5th May 2005, 07:19 PM

Hi Jeff,

That you can see the numbers on the photo is beyound me, buy the catalogue says 1194 - well what are a few years between friends

?

I fully agree with you on the details - they are lovely

, and no copyright of course

.

Best

Jens

Jeff D · 5th May 2005, 07:33 PM

Maybe I am seeing things but here is what I was looking at;

Jeff

Rick · 5th May 2005, 08:20 PM

Sorry guys for the unintentional thread jacking . I'll start another thread on the kirach later .
My bad .

Ian · 5th May 2005, 10:09 PM

Jeff:

I think you are correct. That does look like a date of 1197 H.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 6th May 2005, 03:22 AM

Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you!

While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'.

BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah.

Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts

I should have brought a video cam!!!

Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution.

Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there.

Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these.
Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!!

All the best,
Jim

RobT · 6th May 2005, 03:32 AM

Thanks Ian for the basket hilt clarification. I wondered why it was less baskety than what is normally seen on a firangi. Thanks to Jens also for information on a blade that I have never before heard of. I do have four questions however. Does the sailaba always come with an Indo/Muslim hilt and is it exclusively a Moslim arm? What does sailaba mean? Most importantly, how did the T-rib so closely associated with northern India come to be found on a south central blade type?
Sincerely,
RobT

5th May 2005, 06:38 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jeff, Why do you ask? The catalogue says 1194 H., so I have to believe in it - this should be about 1780 our time. Btw I see on another thread that you have chosen to show a weapon - in detail - shame on you, I thought I had the rights. Best jens

5th May 2005, 07:19 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jeff, That you can see the numbers on the photo is beyound me, buy the catalogue says 1194 - well what are a few years between friends? I fully agree with you on the details - they are lovely, and no copyright of course. Best Jens

5th May 2005, 07:33 PM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Maybe I am seeing things but here is what I was looking at; Jeff Attached Images

5th May 2005, 08:20 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Sorry , Unintentional Thread Hijack Sorry guys for the unintentional thread jacking . I'll start another thread on the kirach later . My bad .

6th May 2005, 03:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Once again Jens has found one of these obscure treasures!!! Excellent material Jens, and as always fascinating. If you arent producing breathtaking photos of incredibly magnificent weapons, you are coming up with terrific adventures in metallurgy and blade history. Thank you! While this sword form from the catalog seems very much like a Kirach, obviously with tulwar hilt, it is interesting to see the application of a this unusual term 'sailaba'. BTW, Rob T. ....excellent observations !! You are a brave soul to charge into the most nebulous areas of Indian swords, the 'sosun pattah' with actually very astute observations on both the swords originally posted here. Nicely done. Your note on the T spine is also well placed as this characteristic is most typically associated with Central Asian edged weapons, especially Afghan...and the Islamic sosun pattah. Ian, thank you for the vote of confidence on my note taking at Baltimore, which proved not nearly as effective as I had hoped. Jonathan Barretts talk was spellbinding, and I couldn't even touch the volume of material he delivered in his talk...in my scrawl I couldnt locate any data on these transitional hilts I should have brought a video cam!!! Back to the 'kirach' : Rick why did ya take out the pictures of the extremely unusual and outstanding example of kirach !!!??? I think it was well placed here as we are looking at some fascinating hybridization of these Indian weapons. I feel pretty certain that your example is very likely a Sikh weapon from northern regions, and the hilt is one of the transitional forms between the traditional tulwar and the Hindu baskethilt that would seem to support that attribution. Returning to the 'sailaba': These are stated to be from Hyderabad, which of course is in the Deccan, where generally the Deccani 'sosun pattah' are found with the Hindu baskethilt (Pant. p.80). It is interesting to note the so called Indo-Muslim tulwar hilt, as well as the T spine kirach type blade which suggests the influence of the Mughal courts of the north which favored the Islamic form sosun pattah (Rawson, pl.1). Of further interest is the scabbard which has the baldric type carrying rings mounted opposed on the throat of the scabbard, which Ian has mentioned, and I believe is an Arabian feature. Hyderabad typically used mercenary warriors from the Yemen in Arabia, and often made trade weapons for those regions. It would seem likely that influences such as these scabbard ring mounts might have been adapted there. Since the 'sailaba' term and reference is pretty new to me, as well as the ongoing confusion on 'sosun pattahs' and variations of them and the kirach are increasingly apparant, I'd really like like to continue this discussion to see if we can clarify some of these. Rick, maybe you could repost your kirach? It really is a beauty!! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th May 2005 at 04:46 AM.

5th May 2005, 06:47 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jens, I am trying to learn to read Arabic dates and if you look at the detailed photo of the blade that you posted , on the right side you see signs that look like this; '119V' . I think that is the date but V is arabic for 7. As for the Nordlundesque photo's, you may have been the first and possibly the best at it, but you don't have exclusive rights! ask Wolviex. . All the Best. Jeff

5th May 2005, 10:09 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Jeff: I think you are correct. That does look like a date of 1197 H. Ian.

6th May 2005, 03:32 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 534	Thanks Ian for the basket hilt clarification. I wondered why it was less baskety than what is normally seen on a firangi. Thanks to Jens also for information on a blade that I have never before heard of. I do have four questions however. Does the sailaba always come with an Indo/Muslim hilt and is it exclusively a Moslim arm? What does sailaba mean? Most importantly, how did the T-rib so closely associated with northern India come to be found on a south central blade type? Sincerely, RobT