Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

check federico's parts of the kris. katik is the perpendicular, irregular metal separating the handle form the blade.

every dialect has a word for it-- in english, it means barrier.

So then this is the Tausug word for gonjo?
I saw this diagram on Federico's site. You might remember that i directed you to it. But the line from the word "katik" actually stops on the blade itself, not the "barrier", so i was confused as to exactly what part he meant to attatch it to.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

So then this is the Tausug word for gonjo?
I saw this diagram on Federico's site. You might remember that i directed you to it. But the line from the word "katik" actually stops on the blade itself, not the "barrier", so i was confused as to exactly what part he meant to attatch it to.

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so.
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so.
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i.

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

[Alam Shah]

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing?
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing?
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

Su: The Edge of Water

For the DNA, I am lucky that i don't have to do it. A university back home is doing their human genome project on all ethnic groups. I'll just wait for their data. Turkey has already profiled the genetic make up of the turkish people.

I am primarily interested of the Tausugs because they were the first to be Islamized by the Arab missionaries in late 1300's.

[Alam Shah]

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details?

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details?

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

They will find out your haplotype and the haplogroup where you belong. I am not a geneticist, but I can analyze the genetic data in relation to geographical peopling.

It's very technical and confusing to explain Y-DNA and mtDNA tests. I leave that to the geneticists to explain.

Y-DNA will tell you about the ancestor of your father. mtDNA will tell you where the ancestor of your mother came from. Now since you are multi-cultural, it would be a long work before you'll get the full picture.

it's like building a family tree but instead of names, you use haplotypes and haplogroups.

when it comes to research, I am not interested of a person's haplotype but his haplogroup.

For Instance I am interested to find out how many haplogroups present in sulu and compare if the same haplogroups are present in borneo and sumatra. If they are the same, it means, the migration pattern and the peopling are the same.

for example, philippines has rxr1, a haplogroup not seen in sumatra and borneo. Upon checking rxr1, the haplogroup that can be traced back to the cameroons of africa, I can then assume that indeed the theory about the early migration of the negritos (dark-skinned proto-filipinos) is indeed correct. As a matter of fact, we have african-looking ethno-linguistic groups in the philippines.

After knowing that rxr1 is non-existent in borneo and sumatra, you can infer a lot of things:

1) by using a world map, you can see that cameroon, southern India (dravidians), and Philippines are geogrpahically parallel to each other and they all have rxr1. The early migration must have missed sumatra and borneo. This also proves that dark-skined dravidians or tamils did reach the philippines in ancient times.

2) since australian aborigines have rxr1, where did it come from. It can't be from India since it had to pass sumatra and borneo. There are two possibilities: it must be direct from cameroon or from the philippines-- Southern Mindanao (davao Region) in particular. I won't wonder. there are aetas, dark-skinned groups, in the region.

So many possibilities. So many historical conventions to prove and disprove using the genetic map before 1500.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it.
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

Yep, i read them, but i must have missed it the first time through. I came across it on the second viewing after googling "katik" and being brought back to the article, but by then you had already answered the question. Of course you have left so many more of my direct questions to you unanswered. I am not sure why this is. If you don't have an answer for these questions you can just say so.