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Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris
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Welcome to the forums . :)
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Interesting thoughts, barganing balyan.
I most particularly find your second link to be of great interest. Principally because you have used a photograph that I produced and which appears in my site. The photograph is one of a ploncon containing some keris from my personal collection. Moreover, you have used this photograph without first obtaining my permission to use it. barganing balyan, please let me assure you that I have no objection to your use of this photograph, and you may continue to use it in the article that already contains it. However, I would very much appreciate it if in future you wish to use any of my photographs, you would first pay me the courtesy of asking if you may use them. |
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I have a problem though. I belong to a group called mandaya in the philippines. I seldom see authentic traditional weapons nowadays. I would like to suggest that, for the sake of cultural preservation, you would sha2re your ethnographic materials and photos for non-profit cultural work to anyone interested. Thanks a lot. |
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Take a spin through our archives--I think you'll be pleased to see how free we are with our ethnographic materials and photos. :) Here's a link to a museum exhibition in Macau some of our members contributed to that you may find interesting: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/message.htm |
Mabuhay! We have discussed Mandaya weaponry several times on this forum - please use "mandaya" in the search engine on this forum.
Mabuting Kapilaran! |
Interesting and fine work you are doing, Baganing_balyan. I hope to see your work grow.
maraming salamat po! |
Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.
I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon. The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors. thanks again. |
I will not buy into a discussion involving keris + kalis, however, there is now no doubt at all that the Javanese keris is of uniquely Javanese origin, from Indian souces.
From Jawa the keris spread into other parts of S.E. Asia, and in these other places developed its own character. In some instances it probably maintained a form closer to its origins than the developed form of the Javanese keris. Of course the keris is not of Malay origin. |
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I hope to see your further writings in this regards, and also your references to back it up. It's enlightening to read your articles, but at the same time it makes me wonder from where you get the sources to come to your conclusion. Anyway, I admire your works..... in fact I admire all works as far as kris / keris are concerned. ;) |
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Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not. The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin. |
Although my interest is primarily about kalis or mindanaoan kris, I have found interesting etymologies and folklore that point the very origin of kris back to the temples of southern and northern India.
A malaysian website has accused me of assuming without bases. That's not really the case. for instance: when I said naga (snake) sword orginally evolved from nair malabar. I analyzed the sanskrit etymology of naga, nagar, nayar, and nair. I also checked the snake-based belief system of the nayar or nair people. I also went back to Mahabharata, a hindu epic, to check the relationship between garuda, the bird-man, and the nagas, the snake people. I did not include them in my blog since there is no obvious philippine connection. nayar or nair people believe in snake gods. nagar or naga (snake) came from that belief system and from the folklore of those believers. the nayars and nairs belong to a higher cast-- probably Brahmin since nayar is also related to temple-- thus, nair malabar, the temple sword. Buddhists too have a concept of naga-- power and protection. There are images of buddha hovered by cobras or serpents. Any place reached by Buddhism, there is a concept and image of naga-- thailand, cambodia, vietnam, indonesia, malaysia, but not philippines. There is no known pre-spanish buddhist account in the philippines. that's the reason why the handles of mindanaon krises are different-- no indo-buddhist handles depicting garuda or naga. People ask me for bibliography, i am writing a blog not a paper. My only hope is to produce a seminal idea that will hopefully challenge researchers all over who have access and resources to expound more. I use Mahabaratha and ramayana for instance to understand Indian folklore. Do i need to write even the name of the translator? I don't think so. I expect though for anyone interested to check the epics. They can even be read online. I just don't understand why I often read that kris is not of malay origin but of javanese. Aren't javanese malay? Javanese language is austronesian related to other austronesian languages in southeast asia like Tagalog of the Philippines. There are also temples in North India where the images of naga sword predate the javanese temple reliefs by centuries. In an archaeological point of view, that is enough an indication that keris could come from naga of northern India. The fact also that Indo-buddhist empires were established in Java, the idea that keris is of Indo-Buddhist origin is reinforced. Thanks a lot. baganing-balyan |
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It would be easy to assume that keris is from kilis and kilich, but i have no basis to base that from since I am not sure if ch can be s and L can be R in early languages of java and sumatra. One thing I am sure though is that kalimantan is not the same as karimantan. if R and L can be interchangeably used, then I assume it is a later evolution as a linguistic pattern. since etymological analysis suggests that kalimantan is from kali-- not kari-- and mantan. there are no malay words such as kaliman, liman, and limantan, so liman cannot be a root word. I do, however, use keras because its meanings symbolize the form and use of keris. Do I have a proof? Linguistic etymology or word relationship is my proof in the absence of texts and written history. if later I find an evidence that indeed keris is from kilis/kilich, then keras, as a word, evolved from keris. I just don't think that we cannot imply from a sound fact to reconstruct history. |
Baganing, some of your ideas are interesting, but I do feel you still have a little way to go.
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"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir. Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from. |
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I could be wrong, but i think i recall that "curiga" is one of the oldest recorded words for the keris from a pre-anglican source. By your own accounts the word "keris" wasn't anglicized until 1580. There is quite a bit of keris history that precedes that date, almost as much as comes after, so it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the keris had no other name previous to this date. Keris has been the generally accepted term in modern times by people throughout the region (and world), but there were times when that word would be meaningless in certain parts of Indonesia where other terminology was in used. Keris has undoubtly won out as the preferred name simply because it is the name that was anglicized, not because it was either the original or more "correct" word for the object. I also think that you will find that the same word in different parts of the region can have slightly different meanings. Sundang, for instance, can refer to a sword length kris in some areas, but is merely a word for sword in others and is applied to swords which are definitely not kris. I think that in the end this name game is much more complex than you are making it out to be. :) "Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. I don't think anyone here would argue that the kalis did indeed develop from it's origins in the Jawa keris. As for okir on Moro kris, i would not say that it is that "rare". I see it often, though certain not on all kris. |
Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.
I think keris is specific for that kind of sword because of its use, meaning, and symbol being a court and ritual sword. hence, the word keras with many deep meanings describing that sword. Most blades or swords don't have specific names-- they are basically different words from different dialects and languages with the same meaning-- sword. for instance, talwar is Hindi for sword. Sundang is also a Filipino word for sword. In short, a keris can be sundang or talwar depending on the language or dialect used, but sundang and talwar are not kerises. In the philippines, a Keris or kalis can be called itak, taga, sundang the filipino words for sword, bolo, machete, and other that resemble to a sword. but in Muslim Mindanao it is kalis because it is not just a sword but a sword for ritual, courtly purpose, and social status. I think it is the same thing with keris, it is not just an ordinary sundang even if other dialects or groups call it as such. I mentioned kalis as an evolved keris because there are still some people who think that kalis is a purely Islamic weapon or that it is purely of javanese origin. Some even think it is purely mindanaon, which is not. Another thing is the redundancy in terms. Saying "talwar sword" "sundang sword" or "itak sword" are just wrong. But saying keris sword and naga sword are correct. Both keris and Naga identify, describe, and localize both swords according to symbol, meaning, design, form, and other cultural representation. I don't think there is another term or word earlier than keris. Maybe there were words used for it but they meant sword not as specific names for a sword. They might have even called keris khadga, sanskrit for sword. Was khadga keris? not necessarily, but a khadga became a keris when specific functions, symbols, and meanings were ascribed to the latter. In other words, keris is khadga but khadga is not keris. |
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Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords. BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom. |
This pursuit of playing with words almost seems to qualify as the ultimate "name game"---which can be fun, and applied in a structured way can possibly produce some enlightening results.However, rather than just haphazardly throw words around, it would be more beneficial if the words were given provenance by naming the language and period from which the word is taken.
For instance baganing tells us that the word "danganan" means "destruction". Perhaps it does in some language, but in Javanese it means "handle". In Old Javanese, that is the form of Javanese that was in widespread use prior to reforms of the House of Mataram beginning in the 16th-17th centuries, the word "keris" did exist, as also did the word "curiga", however, the word "keras" seems not to appear in Old Javanese, nor does the word "dhuwung", which is Krama (high level) Javanese for "keris". This, of course, is to be expected, as the heirarchical levels of the Javanese language did not really develop until after the House of Mataram set out upon the path of attempting to establish its legitimacy. barganing, you do have some interesting ideas, but truly, you need to apply some discipline to the structuring and validation of your ideas. I accept that you have already carried out some research, but you need to document that research, and then to structure your arguments in a logical fashion. Please continue with what you are doing, but please continue in a way that will allow us to accept what you write. |
Not my area but at least baganing is thinking outside the box here.
By the way big pomels on yatagans is a late development earliest I saw was 18 century. Turkish ones if you can call it that from 16-17 century are small with no ears at all theres some in Topkapi museum so not sure how that influnced the Moro kris like you are saying. Anyway welcome Ward |
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I would either be a genius or a clairvoyant if i don't base my ideas on something. But that's not the case. On curiga, for instance, Jan Gonda wrote about the etymology of the word. I just don't find it important to quote him. I would rather go directly to my source-- sanskrit word etymology. Everyone who reads sanskrit knows that churika is a sanskrit for knife or dagger. even if curiga predated keris, it doesn't mean that it was a name for a blade. it was nothing but a javanese word for a knife or dagger. As i said in my earlier post, I want my writings to be seminal ideas hoping that those who have access to related materials and resources for research can seriously look into my ideas. for example: My mind tells me that keris came from kilich (turkish) and keras developed from keris but I have limited materials on ottoman influences in southeast asia. Although I know that the way malay words with foreign influences evolved used the pattern of foreign word first, then literal meaning in local language, and then abstract meaning that still exists today. kilich (sword in turkish) - kilis/Keris (sword or dagger) - keras (sharp or violent) churika (knife in Sanskrit) - curika/curiga (knife) - curiga (suspicious) I still believe that it's possible but I am not sure because I have no materials to prove that keris is from kilich. I hope though that serious keris researcher would look into the turkish/ottoman involvement in the evolution of keris. The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary. I just don't assume when my sources are weak. |
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keris, the sword, was already in Java during the rule of srivijayan empire.
Keris, the term, is the most problematic one. It has no etymology in sanskrit, hindi, or Tamil. So I am not really sure if it was also an Indo-Buddhist word. That's why I said I am not sure because I have limited materials. However, I believe people began to use keris as a word around 1400, and before that, it had an indo-buddhist name-- maybe naga, curiga, or even kali-- I wish I could be sure. It's up to a serious researcher to look into it. I even want to believe that keris came from kurusooli (Tamil short snake), then kurusu, then keris. Linguistically, that is an overstretch. Who knows? maybe there is evidence hiding somewhere. |
The proto-keris that we now refer to as the "Keris Buda" first appeared in monumental representations in 10th century Central Jawa.
By about the 14th century it had developed to the form that we know today. In early Javanese literary works a number of different words are used to refer to the keris. Amongst these words we can find keris(or kris), curigo ( a literary usage), tewek (or twek), tuhuk, duhun, kadgo, panewek. The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma. In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt. In Old Javanese there are a number of words that are associated with the keris:- akris:- to wear or use a keris anris and kinris:- to use a keris then we have:- iris, hiris, aniris, iniris and kahiris, all of which can be understood as to cut or to slice. taking account of the grammatic structure of Old Javanese there is a clear relationship between the word "iris":- to cut, and keris, a cutting weapon. It may be argued that the keris is not a cutting weapon, but a stabbing weapon, however, in Old Javanese the distinction between the keris used as a cutting weapon, and the keris used as a stabbing weapon is shown by the use of "tewek", probably in the context of repeated stabbing. On the other hand, thrusts, or slower stabs appear to be denoted by use of the word "tuhuk". When the inference is to the keris as a cutting weapon, then only the word "kris" ( or a derivative) is used. The words used to refer to the keris in Old Javanese give an indication of the nature of the keris in the relative context. A similarity can be seen in the words used to refer to the keris in modern Javanese, where again, an indication is given by the word used, as to the nature of the keris in the relative context. During the period of development of the keris to its modern form, Jawa was dominated by the Jawa-Hindu faith, which was not displaced by Islam until about 1400. Early Islamic penetration of Jawa did not come from Turkey, but was thought to have been principally from India and China, with some limited numbers of traders from Persia and surrounding areas. In the 17th century there was certainly some contact between the court of Mataram and Turkey, but the word "kris" and its derivatives had already been in common use in Jawa for at least several hundred years by that time. The word "kris", or "keris" is without any doubt at all an indigenous Javanese word, and did not enter the Javanese language from any middle eastern language. baganing, I'm sorry, but your thinking is confused, your presentation is illogical, and you have not yet carried your research far enough, nor in the correct direction. I do encourage you to continue your research; your approach is valid, your thoughts are original, but you do need to work harder at getting the connections and the logic right. |
14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area.
Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia. |
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thanks for the suggestions and advices.
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Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans. Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century. In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.
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