Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 02:51 AM

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

Battara · 30th June 2008, 02:57 AM

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 03:10 AM

Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game".

The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community.

Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses.

The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name.

People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name.

People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names.

What do you use to cut through a field?

What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2008, 03:21 AM

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

you can use the one found in prambanan temple. I can't even see any katik. definitely the blade is straight. I am not sure about the handle-- the stone is broken.

David · 30th June 2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

you can use the one found in prambanan temple. I can't even see any katik. definitely the blade is straight. I am not sure about the handle-- the stone is broken.

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove?

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove?

check federico's parts of the kris. katik is the perpendicular, irregular metal separating the handle form the blade.

every dialect has a word for it-- in english, it means barrier.

baganing_balyan · 30th June 2008, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove?

david, you should know how the traditional users of kerises or krises view their weapons. I just don't think that even that simple stuff, I have to elaborate.

David · 30th June 2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility.

30th June 2008, 02:51 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,090	David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment. The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field. However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed. Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established. Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established. But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris. My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika". Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently. Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

30th June 2008, 02:57 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,346	An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

30th June 2008, 03:10 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,090	Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game". The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community. Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses. The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name. People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name. People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names. What do you use to cut through a field? What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

30th June 2008, 03:21 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,090	Goodness gracious me! Against my will I have been drawn into this. Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris. To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris. Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris? Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.