Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

I know what punal/puyal means. I said my experience was limited but I am a student of Pananandata. The blade, sheath and handle form in every book I have seen ( From Stone to Cato) for Punal matches what David says. That is not to say there may not be other names for it in other dialects. I have stuggled with that on Aceh weapons, with all the ethnic groups lliving there the same weapon may be called a dozen different things depending on who you ask. Its the same weapon. I have seen a balisong the length of my arm. While not a traditional balisong it was still one.

And as I said above I have been led to believe that even "anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims" have both spanish and portuguese words they commonly use.

[baganing_balyan]

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

[RhysMichael]

Perhaps as with the large balisong( that was made for a window display) the larger punal developed more as a display piece than a use piece. Even if that is not the case I have also seen "Bowie Knives" nearly that large. So again what is one mans big knife may be anothers short sword.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

No need to link to the same site again. We can all see what the guy in yellow is holding. A serpentine blade is not a requirement for a kris BTW. No one is saying that. Though i would be willing to bet that the blade in that guy's sheath is in fact wavy. But let me say this again...and please, let it sink in. If it doesn't have an asymmetrical blade with a gonjo feature (separate or otherwise), it...is NOT...a kris. Clearly the width of the sheath on the blades you link to do NOT provide enough space for this feature. Therefore, these are NOT kris. What about this don't you understand?

[baganing_balyan]

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

I know what ethnographic means my dear, believe me.
I know that you have been banned from quite a few other forums in your day, but having alternative ideas isn't part of our criteria for doing so. I am actually quite enjoying your presence here. That doesn't mean i have to agree with you. In the end your credibity will be established or not. Guess which i'm betting on.

[RhysMichael]

An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask.

[baganing_balyan]

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

hahahahahaha. that's not a kris? find a yakan or a samal, he will open your eyes.

that's the reason why i took anthropology-- foreigners come to my country and use their preconception to validate our culture. Even tagalogs and visayans are guilty of that.

well, that's a mindanaoan kris, and that's according to people who use it. theya re the ones who should define their culture not the researchers.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

that's very patronizing. I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

That's why I want to involve science in my research so nobody can accuse me of making up stuff. you cannot make up genealogy and genetics.

There are just too many stuff to change. I hope i can do that in my lifetime. I am not saying that I haven't learned from you. I even said that mine is just a seminal idea that will hopefully interest serious researchers to look into.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

that's not the case.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

True enough Alan, true enough.
It does seem, however, that since Ms. Baganing is not willing to accept the combined knowledge of this forum, and since most of us here are having some problem with her theories and ideas, that perhaps she is wasting her great wealth of knowledge on us, the unwashed and uneducated collectors, and perhaps she might do better to move on to some other more academic forum where her ideas will be better received. In the meantime, i also eagerly await the publishing of her book. I am sure it will be the talk of the community once it is finally published.