Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

[baganing_balyan]

since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology.

I can. can you?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

I am not saying at all that eBay is a good source for research and you know it. What i am saying is that you don't know a kris from a punal and your credibility is shot. Period.
Of course, hilts and sheath vary, but the hilts and sheaths in the picture you linked to clearly shows that these are not kris. I am sorry that you don't fully understand what a kris is, but these are a different type of blade that doesn't have the gangya (separate or otherwise) that is necessary to distinguish the blade as a kris. Some call these punals. Some call them gugongs. But they are not kris.

[David]

Here is just one thread which showcases these large punals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=punal
The word is Spanish. The etymology is not really important in this case, though i am so glad to hear that you know it.

[baganing_balyan]

I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself.

now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife?
You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

[baganing_balyan]

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

I know what punal/puyal means. I said my experience was limited but I am a student of Pananandata. The blade, sheath and handle form in every book I have seen ( From Stone to Cato) for Punal matches what David says. That is not to say there may not be other names for it in other dialects. I have stuggled with that on Aceh weapons, with all the ethnic groups lliving there the same weapon may be called a dozen different things depending on who you ask. Its the same weapon. I have seen a balisong the length of my arm. While not a traditional balisong it was still one.

And as I said above I have been led to believe that even "anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims" have both spanish and portuguese words they commonly use.

[baganing_balyan]

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

I know what ethnographic means my dear, believe me.
I know that you have been banned from quite a few other forums in your day, but having alternative ideas isn't part of our criteria for doing so. I am actually quite enjoying your presence here. That doesn't mean i have to agree with you. In the end your credibity will be established or not. Guess which i'm betting on.

[RhysMichael]

An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask.

[David]

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

Please do not turn this into a racial argument because i will not stand for that. No one here has made any comment disparaging any part of Moro culture. If you do not want to call these longer knives/short swords punal, that is fine with me. Pick your name. As i stated, some call them gugongs. What they are truly not, however, are kris, which i will once more, for the truly dense among us, repeat, must have an asymmetrical blade and some sort of gonjo (separate or intrinsic) to qualify. If you do not know what a kris is, please don't bother me with you questions about what a punal is.