Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[Spunjer]

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory.

ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

and this:

I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century

so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:



ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:



and this:




so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

if you are an antiquarian or antique collector, 1800 artifact is ancient. For anthropologists or historians ancient means centuries ago.

Stop nitpicking. It was you who said turko was introduced by the spanish, and I refuted that idea since vikingo does not exist in our Lexicon. Bombay exists. It's because early Filipinos did meet early Indians, and there were indians living in cainta, rizal as early as mid 1700.

As I studied Philippine languages, it seems that we don't have early names for foreigners our forefathers had not met. Vikingo is a case in point. Yes, I checked the DNA chart, Filipinos do not have any viking genes.

By the way, I think the r1b I thought is actually rxr1 coming from the australian aborigines and cameroon, africa. It is explainable. We have negroid natives in the philippines such as aetas.

Now why would Philippines sumatra, and borneo have a eurasian haplogroup? I think that's where the turkish ottomans enter the scene.

[Spunjer]

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

really?

here's a Kris Espada dated 1899



now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's



and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's



which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...haic+moro+kris

seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition?

turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

really?

here's a Kris Espada dated 1899



now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's



and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's



which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...haic+moro+kris

seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition?

turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that?

On the issue of turko, it seems you are not getting my point. I grew up hearing turko used to scare us when we were kids so was bombay. I did not even know then how they looked like. I had not met them. We lived in a province in mindanao. Since I heard that word, I started asking where they learned about turko and bombay. They said from their ancestors. There you go. The spanish definitely did not introduce bombay for Indian and I believe turks reached mindanao, hence the turko in the consciousness of the Filipinos and in the language.

If I have to carbon-date krises these are the ones I am interested to work on in particular order.


kris 1

kris 2

kris 3

kris 4

You said dated? What did you mean by that? Carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or Christian dating? When you said dated, is it the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what? If you want to make sure of dates, you better use a technology.

Now, in the absence of real recorded dates and scientific methods of dating, the rule in archeology regarding early tools, stone, wooden, and metal, applies-- from simple to complex. There are archaeological materials you can read online regarding the evolution of tools.

In archaeological dating, in the absence of carbon-dating and physical indication of real dates-- historical accounts and artifacts are also used in association. For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas. Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared. I am still collecting data about sulu elephants and the role of a sulu sultan in (unknowingly) preserving extinct javan elephants that are said to be still existing in Borneo. Hence, the 19th century ivory "cockatoo" handle heads.

They are not really cockatoos but images of sarimanok (mythical bird). Ottoman art has such bird motif. I believe it was the ottomans and arab missionaries who brought the Islamic image to sulu.

There are just many things to consider. Next time you see a dated kris in a museum, ask the curator if it was the date the kris was collected or made. Most of the time, when tools are not carbon-dated, they won't put dates they were made but collected.

[David]

Baganing, you are going to find it really difficult to find anyone who is willing to allow carbon dating on a kris since it involves destroying a small part of the object to do it. Carbon dating sheaths and hilts is pointless as these are commonly changed over years. While we do not have this scientific method to date these weapons we do have many clues that allow us to put the different styles and characteristics that we see into catagories of different eras based in part on blades of provenence. The kris that you link to on Artzi's site are all fairly accurately dated. Kris #1 shows all the characteristics of a mid to late 19th century kris. Kris #2 is a bit older, maybe around 1800 to mid 19th century. Kris #3 is in the "archaic" style and could be late 18th century. Keris #4 again appears to be of the 19th century variety. You might want to get a hold of Robert Cato's book Moro Sword for a better understanding of the clues that help us designate the approximate age on these blades.
"I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is."
As Spunjer has pointed out this is obviously an inaccurate statement based on both his examples and the ones you have shown. To take it a step further, examine some of the post WWII blades which get even more simplistic in their design.
As for Spunjer's kris, i have also handled it and can assure you that it is indeed real ivory. You will also see numerous "archaic" style kris that are at least from the 1700s with ivory pommels so i am sorry to say that your research is just plain wrong here as well. Ivory pommels have been used on some of the oldest known Moro kris. There was much early trade for materials like ivory in the Philippines and ivory can also be found locally from marine sources. Older kakatu pommels on kris tend to be rather diminutive compared to later styles so the very large piece of ivory that you get from elephants might not be necessary for these smaller pommels.
Lastly, you can question why the word "vikingo" did not find it's way into to language, but i am afraid that it "proves" nothing. Perhaps it just wasn't pertinent enough. The Vikings made it to Spain, but i don't believe that they spent a lot of time pillaging there and they never had a conquering empire like the Ottomans. They also predate the Ottomans by a few centuries. The Turks, however, may have lingered in the Spanish memory and imagination for a longer period of time.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

I beg to differ - although this is true to a certain degree within the life of a people or civilization, even over the life span of a human population there can be changes in complexity from one time period to the next.

Example: look at the Indus Valley civilization - very complex with complex artifacts in the 2nd millenium BC, but compare this to the 1st millenuim it looks like the appex of civilization. The same can also be said of the region of the Middle East around what is now Palestine over several periods where different peoples changed the level of complexity of artifacts (ie. after the arrival of the "Sea Peoples" or the arrival of Amorite tribes into the region).

Thus a period of complexity in design or artifacts can be followed by a period of lower complexity (ie. the European "Dark Ages" after the fall of the Western Roman Empire). These kris may be older than you think and the use of ivory goes back millenia.

[baganing_balyan]

there are just too many levels to consider in dating mindanaoan kris.

First, the people of mindanao is not homogenous in language, art, weaponry. social development, etc.

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula.

It is possible that the samals were just starting to use simple Krises while maranaos known for their artistry already used the intricate ones or maybe the tausugs known for their warfare skills did not really care for the design of their krises but their functions and usability.

Muslims in Mindanao are not a homogenous group. The social and technological development in each community also varries.

So I cannot really say that the simple kris of samal made in 19th century and the intricate kris of maranao of 18th century disprove the validity of the simple-to-complex principle in archaeology.

If we date krises according to communities, we will see that pattern-from simple to intricate.

That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

[David]

Baganing, what i think you might find studying, let's say, just Sulu kris is that the dress (hilt forms and decoration) might get more complex as time progresses. We certainly see larger kakatus for instance. However, the blades themselves undoubtably get more simplistic over time. If you can show us otherwise with examples i would be both surprised and interested.

[Spunjer]

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?

Baganing balyan-I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older.

was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India

and then you came with this revelation:

For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas.

and this:

then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared.

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?

Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

pictures?

well, got to go...

[Spunjer]

wha-? wait a minute..

That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Ron, i don't think she's read Cato's book.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Have you checked if those kris/kalis terms traditionaly exist in Mindanao?

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan?

Kris tulid? is it tul-id?

mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao?

They sound recent concoction to me.

[David]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means?

Since you ask, AFAIK "luma" is a term from Maguindanao that refers to a kris which is half wavy and half straight.
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?



was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:


and then you came with this revelation:


and this:

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?




pictures?

well, got to go...

mmmmmm I thought when I mentioned sulu elephants, you would research or know about it. They were from java transported to Sulu. The account is still vague, and I am still collecting data.

regarding the dating of kalises:

I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them.

I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals.

If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao.

mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense.

In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs.

Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use.

in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues?