Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

That is part of the problem. As i mentioned before, the earliest Moro kris that i have ever seen tend to date to the 18th century. It might be possible that these have been misdated and are closer to 17th century, but earlier than that is doubtful. The one that Spunjer shows here is most probably late 19th century. If anyone can show me a Moro kris from the 14th century i would sure like to see it.
There are many threads on this forum that show these so-called "archaic" kris and we have had quite a bit of discussion on them. There are also many Moro kris threads that deal with blades that have inscriptions, okir and/or magickal symbols on them. As Spunjer has pointed out, these inscriptions are sometimes written in Jawi. I would suggest that you try the search function and check some of these threads out. They will definitely help you with your research.
BTW, can you actually pinpoint when the word "turko" came into the language?

I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older. Moros then and muslims now have a tradition of treating weapons as heirlooms.

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India. It could not be borneo because ivory bracelets are only common among the lumads in caraga and davao region. I haven't seen Muslim women in muslim mindanao wear old ivory bracelets.

It is hard to date folklore. As far as I know, my grandparents had been using the words turko, bombay, and negro even without meeting a turk, an indian, and an african. They are just part of our lexicon and consciousness. bombay has a proven history in the Philippines, so is the negro (slaves) during the spanish galleon trade, but the story about the turko is still not clear.

I have been researching about the origin of sulu, its meaning, and what language it came from. I could not find it in early Malay words, in Spanish, but i have found it in turkish language and it means "water." It perfectly suits to the geography of sulu, the philippine province.

Sanskrit also has sulu. it means "one who cuts well" and it is a term use in Indian classical dance, but Mandakranta Bose wrote in her book, Movement and Mimesis: The Idea of Dance in the Sanskritic, that the use of sulu only began in 16th century.

I believe Indian's sulu is an influence of the muslim's temple dance pangalay in sulu, the Philippine province, where krises are sometimes used-- hence, the meaning, "one who cuts well."

I still believe that sulu became a name of the place when the arab missionaries reached the island bringing Islam and the Ottomans were with them. The spread of Islam that time was synonymous to the expansion of the ottoman empire.

[Battara]

I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Battara

I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles.

I also have a copy of thirteenth century text written by a chinese trader involved in ivory trading not with the people of sulu but with the lumads (natives) of palawan.

[fearn]

Hi Baganing,

This is a more general comment, rather than a specific response. I happen to work in the sciences, and there's this idea that some have called "scientific sexiness." It's when you fall head over heels in love with this wonderful idea, and then go out chasing it and trying to prove it's true. The problem with great ideas is that not all of them turn out to be so great once you get to know them. Yes, there are parallels between science and dating.

In any case, what separates the good scientists from the bad ones isn't the sexiness of their ideas, it's that their sexy ideas stand up to cold, hard, often brutal scrutiny, primarily because they're testable, and withstand all attempts to refute them with the best evidence available.

While I agree that you have to be a strong advocate for your ideas (and they are interesting), if you want to do truly good scholarship, you also need to find ways to test your ideas. If your ideas cannot be tested in a way that would disprove them, then they really aren't great.

That's okay. I've got a closetful of sexy ideas. Most researchers do. My favorite unfulfilled sexy idea is waiting for someone discover 70 million year old fossil roots of a proto-oak from Burma--if such roots exist. Once someone finds those roots, I can write a paper that will change everyone's ideas about how plants evolved. But only if I'm right about what how those roots are constructed, and only if they exist. There may or may not be parallels between this story and trying to find a 600 year old kris to support your ideas.

My 0.00002 cents. Back to lurking. Interesting thread!

F

[Spunjer]

Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles.

do you have a copy of this smithsonian photographs you're talking about?

If the Spanish introduced "turko," don't you think they would have also introduced "vikingo" (viking) since the viking culture and history also reached spain like the Ottomans'? Unfortunately, we don't have vikingo in our language.

huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting.

I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older.

i'm interested in finding out why you think these krises were older. surely there are tell tale signs, no?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

do you have a copy of this smithsonian photographs you're talking about?





huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting.




i'm interested in finding out why you think these krises were older. surely there are tell tale signs, no?

I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century. in archaeology, the more intricate a tool looks, the more recent it is.

You said the spanish introduced the "turko" to the philippines. Granting they did since Spain was not spared by the ottomans, they would have also introduced "vikingo" since vikings also invaded/raded spain. Why would they be selective about their history, if indeed they introduced the image or the word turko to the filipinos?

anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b.

I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines.

I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe

y-chromosome haplogroups

[Spunjer]

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory.

ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

and this:

I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century

so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:



ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:



and this:




so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

if you are an antiquarian or antique collector, 1800 artifact is ancient. For anthropologists or historians ancient means centuries ago.

Stop nitpicking. It was you who said turko was introduced by the spanish, and I refuted that idea since vikingo does not exist in our Lexicon. Bombay exists. It's because early Filipinos did meet early Indians, and there were indians living in cainta, rizal as early as mid 1700.

As I studied Philippine languages, it seems that we don't have early names for foreigners our forefathers had not met. Vikingo is a case in point. Yes, I checked the DNA chart, Filipinos do not have any viking genes.

By the way, I think the r1b I thought is actually rxr1 coming from the australian aborigines and cameroon, africa. It is explainable. We have negroid natives in the philippines such as aetas.

Now why would Philippines sumatra, and borneo have a eurasian haplogroup? I think that's where the turkish ottomans enter the scene.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b.

I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines.

I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe

y-chromosome haplogroups

I think we are still a few years away from having DNA tell us a good story but it's coming. It certain to challenge current history. Societies need to provide food & protection. When those things are met in a time efficient manner, constant progress can be made to make tasks even more efficient & evolve into more inventions. Certainly the use of metals (tools/weapons), composite bow, agriculture & animal husbandry would provide a unequal match from a society with and one without. Throw in natural disasters, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes and fires; you have a maddening mix of influences that formed mans history. A great read (although I don't agree totally) is "Guns, Germs and Steel, the fate of Human Societies by Jared Diamond. His detail into influences/inter actions & their impact is must read for those interested in this type of things. History is written by the "winners" & certainly National Pride, Religion & Idealogy come into play.
My wife is a Cebuano & speaks the dialect. I gave her Pigafetta's list of words, he recorded in Cebu & she found a fairly small % that she recognized. & I am sure you are knowledgeable of the different meanings of the same word in the different Philippine dialects. But if you hear someone, in their dialect, say "air con" or "computer" you don't have to understand their dialect to know what the word means or from where it is derived.