Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area.

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.

Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.

Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?

[baganing_balyan]

thanks for the suggestions and advices.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by David

Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?

No, I've not lost interest but also don't have the energy for the effort. It is interesting that Alan is in this tread as the Australians seem to have a strong interest in the Bugis culture. The claim is, the texts go back to about 1300 & deal primarily with genealogy but give good insight to the culture. Ian Caldwell refers to the different texts in his work. The Bugis by Christian Pelras (French) has a great book about the culture, refers to the texts & has quite a bit about metal working, even going into the legend of how metal smithing started on Sulawesi. I've bought some of the working papers from Monash University/Australia that refer to the texts. While I'm sure all the texts would be interesting, there likely is only dots & dashes about keris/kris & the folks that research these texts don't have that as their focus.

[baganing_balyan]

Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans. Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century. In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.

[Bill]

I fall into believing the "Deluge Theory" which Gimbutas hints at but others provide some evidence. How early & how far different groups traveled & had direct or even indirect influences may never be proved. The Vikings traded in Bagdad so we know there was some extreme early trading. Considering the length & size of the Ottoman Empire there likely was early direct influence but if not, surely indirect. But i'd think some forms of contacts before the Ottoman period between Turkey & "the Islands" likely but I certainly have no proof. DNA studies are likely to throw some wrenches into current history. Early Brunei was a trade center & could be a link. You might also look into the gold death masks found on Mindanao/Sulawesi & those found in Egypt & China. And if you don't mind, please find out who dug those ancient mines in Mindanao.

[A. G. Maisey]

Where would we be without Wikipedia?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

I fall into believing the "Deluge Theory" which Gimbutas hints at but others provide some evidence. How early & how far different groups traveled & had direct or even indirect influences may never be proved. The Vikings traded in Bagdad so we know there was some extreme early trading. Considering the length & size of the Ottoman Empire there likely was early direct influence but if not, surely indirect. But i'd think some forms of contacts before the Ottoman period between Turkey & "the Islands" likely but I certainly have no proof. DNA studies are likely to throw some wrenches into current history. Early Brunei was a trade center & could be a link. You might also look into the gold death masks found on Mindanao/Sulawesi & those found in Egypt & China. And if you don't mind, please find out who dug those ancient mines in Mindanao.

I think gold was mined and valued by early Filipinos specially in the Caraga region. Pigafetta wrote about early Filipinos with gold teeth. Interestingly, there are lumads (natives), mandaya in particular, who still keep the tradition until today. Old mandayas have one or two gold front teeth and the rest are black from lime and bettel nuts we call apog and mama.

[Spunjer]

hi guys,

sorry, been on vacation

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans.

as a matter of fact, they do. magical symbols, jawi, Qur'anic verses and okir are every now and then can be found in Moro weapons.

Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century.

i'm not following the timeline here. if you're referring to the writings on the weapons, etc. during the 14th c. i'm sure a lot of us here would love to see a moro weapon from that era, writings or no writings.

In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.

i'm sure it's the same way the word "Moro" (moors) got introduced.
Spain.

[David]

Hey Spunjer, nice to see you back from vaca.
That kris looks familiar. Is it the one you got for Harold with the pommel repaired. If so it's nice to see it restored.
I think a lot of us would like to see a Moro weapon from the 14th century or be able to say with any amount of certainty just when the kris first appeared there. The earliest kris that Cato shows he dates to 18th century. It is, of course, possible that these "archaic" kris are a bit older. Maybe 16th century...a real stretch, i'd say, to place them any older.
I don't know how long the word "turko" has been in usage, but i think that your idea that it was introduced by the Spanish is a strong one.
Nice to have you back.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hi guys,

sorry, been on vacation



as a matter of fact, they do. magical symbols, jawi, Qur'anic verses and okir are every now and then can be found in Moro weapons.







i'm not following the timeline here. if you're referring to the writings on the weapons, etc. during the 14th c. i'm sure a lot of us here would love to see a moro weapon from that era, writings or no writings.




i'm sure it's the same way the word "Moro" (moors) got introduced.
Spain.

Find krises that are earlier than the one you showed. Sulu and Maguindanao muslims have their own dialects. Arabic was not widely-used and written then. Madrassas are recent development.

If the Spanish introduced "turko," don't you think they would have also introduced "vikingo" (viking) since the viking culture and history also reached spain like the Ottomans'? Unfortunately, we don't have vikingo in our language.

Filipinos have names for the people their forefathers encountered in ancient times. For chinese, we have tsino and intsik, Dutch, Olandes, africans, negro not africano.