Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2007, 06:36 PM

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2007, 07:55 PM

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.

And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.

And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

Your realy cluthching at straws now Tim!

Show me some figural knives from this period, with satanic, christian or any other symbolism on them so we can have a serious discusian.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2007, 08:34 PM

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2007, 08:52 PM

This German glass chalice "for sacrificial blood" Bavaria 1855 has many of the elements seen in the knife that started the thread. It could be seen as a touch subversive which indeed may well have been the intentional edge to the piece, if one is to bring to mind the rather stifling muscular church influence on life.

katana · 9th January 2007, 10:12 PM

Gentlemen......I think that to determine the daggers use ...we should investigate further, the possible associations with Hugo's 'Hunchback of Notre Dame', there are so many links to the story and possible symbolism with the 'true' context of the Authors work that this dagger pocesses.

The hilt form already has already been discussed to a degree. The knife in 'Esmorelda's' waistband is paramount to the story......she is (falsely) accused of atempted murder, by stabbing....later excecuted because of this.
In the story she is shown as opening carrying one....

"Mademoiselle Esmeralda," said the poet, "let us come to terms. I am not a clerk of the court, and I shall not go to law with you for thus carrying a dagger in Paris, in the teeth of the ordinances and prohibitions of M. the Provost. Nevertheless, you are not ignorant of the fact that Noel Lescrivain was condemned, a week ago, to pay ten Parisian sous, for having carried a cutlass."

The scabbard with all its archetectual design.....shows clearly 3 arched doorways........ this is a quote from a synopsis of Chapter 3...

As the narrator remarks: "Time is blind, man stupid." Nevertheless, he emphasizes the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

The goat on the hilt was originally interpreted as 'satanic'...however..

"...., the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed as a half human, half goat figure, or a goat head. It is often misinterpreted as a symbol of witch-craft in general. It is used by Satanists, but is not used by neo-pagan witches who do not worship the devil.
The origin of the Baphomet is unclear. It may be a corruption of Muhomet (Mohammed). The english witchcraft historian Montague Summers suggested that it was a combination of two greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes, The Black Goat and the Judas Goat.

One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard

Excelent points to ponder & illustration of possibilites Katana , thankyou. Good research!

I would say if you google the various towns & city of europe for churches & cathedrals you will finf many such doorways though.

Linking a dagger to the story is excelent! I have seen lovely French figurine knives of the 1850 to 1870 period in my research, so they do exist. I was hoping some would post more pictures of them but they seeem rather rare.

But so do & are Satanist daggers, interpritation is the key.

Any input on the bishops or Jews with boils & faces of misery in the book?

But re you last point, I would say that if ever you are unfortuanate & unlucky enough to to stab someone or something & hit a bone you will see why most daggers have a crossgaurd.

Heres another intresting point of construction.

The blade is drilled lengthwise & threaded into a steel bolt in the hilt.

Has anyone found a dagger of such construction before?

Spiral

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:38 PM

Double post

spiral · 9th January 2007, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

Thankyou Tim that is nearer the mark. More detail would be nice.

Can you tell me whether there was any differance in the style of the 19th century casters from Germany & France? or would thier work be identical?

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2007, 09:33 PM

I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.

spiral · 9th January 2007, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.

Thankyou Tim,

Some says it was the Medical proffesion that helped perpetrate the last round of European witchburnigs to get rid of the herbal health/ complimentry medicene practioners as competition.

I have no idea whether that is plausible though?

Spiral

spiral · 9th January 2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

I always find your veiws & opinions on evry item I have ever posted Tim, highly entertaining. thankyou for that.

i would be very concerned if you thought it looked like anything i thought it was.

Spiral

9th January 2007, 08:34 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples. Attached Images

9th January 2007, 06:36 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

9th January 2007, 07:55 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor. And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse.

9th January 2007, 08:52 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	This German glass chalice "for sacrificial blood" Bavaria 1855 has many of the elements seen in the knife that started the thread. It could be seen as a touch subversive which indeed may well have been the intentional edge to the piece, if one is to bring to mind the rather stifling muscular church influence on life.

9th January 2007, 10:12 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Gentlemen......I think that to determine the daggers use ...we should investigate further, the possible associations with Hugo's 'Hunchback of Notre Dame', there are so many links to the story and possible symbolism with the 'true' context of the Authors work that this dagger pocesses. The hilt form already has already been discussed to a degree. The knife in 'Esmorelda's' waistband is paramount to the story......she is (falsely) accused of atempted murder, by stabbing....later excecuted because of this. In the story she is shown as opening carrying one.... "Mademoiselle Esmeralda," said the poet, "let us come to terms. I am not a clerk of the court, and I shall not go to law with you for thus carrying a dagger in Paris, in the teeth of the ordinances and prohibitions of M. the Provost. Nevertheless, you are not ignorant of the fact that Noel Lescrivain was condemned, a week ago, to pay ten Parisian sous, for having carried a cutlass." The scabbard with all its archetectual design.....shows clearly 3 arched doorways........ this is a quote from a synopsis of Chapter 3... As the narrator remarks: "Time is blind, man stupid." Nevertheless, he emphasizes the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone." The goat on the hilt was originally interpreted as 'satanic'...however.. "...., the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed as a half human, half goat figure, or a goat head. It is often misinterpreted as a symbol of witch-craft in general. It is used by Satanists, but is not used by neo-pagan witches who do not worship the devil. The origin of the Baphomet is unclear. It may be a corruption of Muhomet (Mohammed). The english witchcraft historian Montague Summers suggested that it was a combination of two greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes, The Black Goat and the Judas Goat. One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard

9th January 2007, 10:38 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Double post

9th January 2007, 09:33 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.