Talismanic symbols?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Michael,

Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra?

[VVV]

Jens,

I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons.
And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim.
The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how?

Michael

PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

[VVV]

I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread.
Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic"
by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye.
The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians.
Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite).
Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michael,

It is an interesting thread, and I hope others will join in. Stephan Markel, at Los Angeles County Museum of Art, published an article in Jewellery Studies, vol. 10, 2004, where he writes ‘ The motif, shown in the centre and neck of the Taipei pot [shown in the article], is a round, broad leafed plant form with generally five, but sometimes three, four, or six petals terminating in a jagged edge. It is clearly different in botanical structure from the poppy flower portrayed frequently in Mughal art’.

The interesting thing is that when it comes to floral decoration, it seems as if the artist had a lot of artistic freedom, but the same, surely would not count for religious or talismanic decorations. The attached shows what I believe to be the Mughal inspired poppies, looking quite different from the poppies he describes on the Taipei pot.

[Flavio]

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

[Jens Nordlunde]

Flavio,
To me it looks more like the attached. Some call it a cypress, and others The Tree of Life.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hi all, is this symbol on the blade of a moro kris a talismanic symbol or just a decoration? I think is some kind of trident. Thank you so much

I remember this one. Actually it is both. Through use of okir (stylized vegitation motifs) this is a stylized naga - snake - with a tongue. It is to empower the owner and make the piece more deadly.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by VVV

....Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

Jens,

Having studied the evil eye some more I have found that the "male" triangle is a widespread symbol of an averting eye.
The crescent often represents either an eyebrow or an eyelid.
On you sword with 5 dots this could both represent 2 triangular eyes as well as the number 5 (fingers to blind the evil eye).
Your double crescent motif could be 4 eyes, at the corners, and one, non-visible, eye in the center.

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Jose, that point just means you're sharp! You're right on the talismanic images, and there are so many applications. One I distinctly remember many years ago was the rabbits foot. It was really popular to wear one of these, until one pillar of wisdom noted, " if thats for good luck, I guess it didnt work too good for the rabbit!".
Still, one cannot diminish the power of positive thinking, belief and faith. In the many forms applied, these markings represent these profoundly, and often help us not only understand, but to identify the provenances of many weapons.

It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade.
I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere?

Gav, excellent! You found a copy of Wagner.....extremely important reference, and yes it is huge!! When I loaded my copy into our RV my wife really groaned as I brought it in I had to convince her that I had left behind nearly a shelf of other books in its place.
Wagner is one of the few, actually probably the only, arms writer who has approached this very important esoterica in weapons, until Elgood that is!

Interesting observations Michael, the expression 'five in the eye' refers to the upheld hand with fingers splayed shielding from the evil eye, and as noted is termed 'fibula' (seems odd as one thinks of one of the two forearm bones).

Best regards,
Jim

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems that the triangular geometric applied device is primarily found in the folk religions of North Africa that are nominally Muslim, though it also occurs in Afghan and Central Asian regions, and is known as the 'fibula'. This is indeed to ward off the 'evil eye'. These triangular devices are found as described in a book titled "The Afghan Amulet" (I think by Sheila Payne) and appear worn on clothing and textiles. In North Africa the best example is the triangular linear motif on the flyssa blade. I am not aware of the triangle used in this sense in Indian weapons, particularly the Hindu forms. In checking Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" I did not find specific reference to the 'evil eye' ...perhaps I missed it somewhere?...
Jim

Jim,

Here is a quote from Westermarck 1933, Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation, page 50 in the chapter The Evil Eye:

"The triangle, again, is used as an amulet in Mediterranean countries, Arabia and India."

Maybe someone else can find more info about it somewhere else?

Michael

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Michael, it is very interesting, but also complicated.
A friend sent me the following link http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/TILAKAM.htm which is huge, and so far I have not read it all, but it gives some interesting explanations. One of the problems is, that some of the symbols may have meant something if you believed in one religion, and something else if you believed in another religion, but many of the symbols on the blades were only used by one religion. But if captured, a good blade was still a good blade, and was used by the capturer.
Jens