Talismanic symbols?

Rick · 9th December 2006, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

Jens,

What are your beliefs about the three dots?
To me they suggest the trident.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th December 2006, 02:35 PM

Yustas,

Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning?

Rick,

To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways.

The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know.

The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment.

I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where?

VVV · 10th December 2006, 08:12 PM

Jens and Rick,

You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too.

I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead).
Maybe combined with the Lingam?
A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni).
In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy.
But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam.

Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest.
Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva.
And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction.

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 12:42 PM

Michael,

Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra?

VVV · 11th December 2006, 01:03 PM

Jens,

I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons.
And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim.
The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how?

Michael

PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2006, 02:47 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

VVV · 3rd April 2008, 11:27 AM

I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread.
Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic"
by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye.
The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians.
Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite).
Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye.
BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots?

Michael

10th December 2006, 02:35 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yustas, Thank you for your link, it is interesting to see the different decorations used in Ukraine, as some of the old decorations were used over a very large area. The question is, did the same decoration, used in different places, have the same meaning? Rick, To me the three dots are either talismanic and/or religious as I think they have been used in two different ways. The big triangle (first picture). There is only one triangle, and it always has the base in direction of the hilt. The dots can be like on the picture or bigger, sometimes with inlay. I think this could be religious, maybe representing Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, but I don’t know. The small triangles like on the second picture starting and ending another decoration, here ‘eyelashes’, but I have also seem the small triangles at the start and end of fullers. This I think is more likely something talismanic, as if the ‘eyelashes’ ‘hide’ a message, and the triangles close the openings at the top and bottom – again pure guessing at the moment. I hope we will find the answer one day, as I am sure it must be out there somewhere. To me it is strange that we, so far, have not found any explanation of the meaning, as the soldiers coming to India seeing these markings must have taken an interest in them, drawn them, and maybe even written an article about Indian markings – but where? Attached Images

10th December 2006, 08:12 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens and Rick, You often see this triangular dot pattern on Sumatran weapons too. I am also guessing but I think it represents Mata Shiva, the 3 eyes of Shiva (2 regular horisontal eyes and one eye above in the forehead). Maybe combined with the Lingam? A triangle pointing up is a Hindu symbol of the Lingam (down is of course Yoni). In the case you describe the Shivaistic male forces of the Lingam is pointing towards the enemy. But because of the dots, instead of the fully drawn triangle, I think the main meaning is Mata Shiva and the secondary meaning is the Lingam. Some other explanations could be the trinity of the main gods, as you suggest. Mahadeva in which the three gods of the Trimurti are all seen as aspects of Shiva. And then we have f.i. the three aspects of creation, preservation and destruction. Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2006 at 09:01 PM. Reason: added alternative explanations

11th December 2006, 12:42 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Michael, Interesting theory you have, and you could be right. So, in theory, we both believe that the big triangle is religious, but what about the small triangles? I don’t think they are religious marks, but I don’t know what their meaning is. Do you also see them on weapons from Sumatra? Attached Images

11th December 2006, 01:03 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens, I have so far only seen the single dot triangle on Sumatran weapons. And in all cases on the tip of the scabbard, not on the blades where other kind of talismanic inscriptions are used, usually Muslim. The several small triangles probably are related to the large one but I have no idea how? Michael PS The example below is an early 20th C Aceh small parang with the triangle at the scabbard and Quranic writing in the fuller. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 11th December 2006 at 01:09 PM. Reason: added example

11th December 2006, 02:47 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Michael, Thank you for showing the picture, i have never seen the triangle on a scabard before.

3rd April 2008, 11:27 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I think it would be nice to reactivate this talismanic thread. Having now read Indian Ritual and Belief; The Keys of Power by Abbot (recommended to me as "The Bible of Indian Magic" by a university professor specialised in Indian religions) I suspect that these symbols are intended to avert the evil eye. The belief of the evil eye (Sanskrit Drshti) is found among both the Hindu and the Muslim Indians. Among Hindus I suspect that it's related to the concept of Darshan(a), visions of the Divine (as the opposite). Both the eyelash, crescent and dots are talismanic symbols to protect from the evil eye. BUT usually there are either 5 (=fingers of the hand to blind the eye), a pair (=2 eyes) or one (a counter eye) dots? Michael