Talismanic symbols?

Spunjer · 7th December 2006, 03:15 PM

Michael,
it's the jesuit order's symbol...

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 03:51 PM

I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India.

The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark.

In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’

Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet.

Sorry, I think I got carried away.

VVV · 7th December 2006, 04:06 PM

Jens,

Beautiful and interesting hilt!

I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions.
And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin.
So please bore us some more.

Michael

Jens Nordlunde · 7th December 2006, 05:26 PM

Michael, du bad selv om det.

Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text.
“The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him.
’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence.
The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs.

The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN).

The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount.

You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

VVV · 7th December 2006, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Michael, du bad selv om det.
...The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs....
You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India.

Jens

Jens, that's OK

As you probably know other possible reasons for having a peacock on a weapon is that it's the mount of the war-god Skanda (aka Karttikeya, the son of Shiva and Parvati) as well as a Hindu symbol of immortality.

The reason I didn't answer your Indian keris question is that I neither have the book you referred to nor know anything about Indian kerises.
Maybe you can post some examples on the separate Keris forum and hopefully activate Alan Maisey on this interesting issue?

Michael

kai · 7th December 2006, 07:57 PM

Hello Jens,

Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like?

It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades...

Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris.

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde · 8th December 2006, 03:56 PM

Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise.

A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it?

Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.

7th December 2006, 03:51 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I will not bore you with writing about Indian talismanic markings, as it is not what this thread is about, there is however one thing which have kept me wondering. In none of the threads about krises that I have seen, is mentioned that is was also used in south India (see Robert Elgood – Hindu Arms and Ritual). I wonder why, and I think you would be able to find many interesting markings on krises from India. The snake is another matter, as you will find it in most, if not in all, religions of the area, plus in a lot of other places, if you read about the peoples/clans/tribes saga about how the Earth was populated – so no wonder that the snake is an important mark. In The Wonder that was India, A.L.Basham writes about the fish. ‘The fish (Matsya). When the earth was overwhelmed by a universal flood Visnu took the form of a fish, who first warned Manu (the Hindu Adam) of the impending danger, and then carried him, his family, and the great Sages in a ship, fastened to a horn on his head. He also saved the Vedas from the flood. ……’ Many of these old stories from the first religions will be recognised from religion to religion, and the fish was one of the scared marks used by several religions. Think of the trisulas, used over a very big area. Flowers used, were decorative, but I also think they represented something else, maybe a deity. Have a look at this hilt, with two fish, a big flower, on the other side two big flowers, and four trisulas, on on each quillon and on on each langet. Sorry, I think I got carried away. Attached Images

7th December 2006, 05:26 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Michael, du bad selv om det. Let’s go to Nepal. I have a kukri, only one, but I like it a lot. As I don’t know much about these weapons I asked John Powell, and he very helpfully gave me the following text. “The fish on a kukri is called ’matsaya’ in Nepali, and is very common. They represent the first incarnation of Vishnu, and are associated directly with him. ’Suvarna matsya’ are the twin golden fish facing each other, and symbolize being rescued from the ocean of misery of earthly existence. The peacock is a very common symbol among the Nepalese, for good fortune, and used in many different designs. The ’Hanuman’ is a half god . Half monkey and half human, he is portrayed in different manners and takes on a variety of positions.” (try to Google/Wikipedia. JN). The Hanuman you can find on the top mount (the triangle one), the two golden fishes in the middle and the peacocks on the lower mount. You did not answer the question about the kerises used in south India. Jens Attached Images

7th December 2006, 03:15 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Michael, it's the jesuit order's symbol...

7th December 2006, 04:06 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Jens, Beautiful and interesting hilt! I agree that the same kind of myths are found in a lot of different cultures and religions. And several of the old talismanic symbols found in f.i. Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines have Indian origin. So please bore us some more. Michael

7th December 2006, 07:57 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Jens, Thanks for bringing this up again! Could you share some examples of Indian blades which you refer to as kris/keris-like? It's certainly a matter of definition but I have yet to see an Indian example (either extant or recognizable from artwork) which could convincingly argued to be a direct ancestor of the Southeast Asian keris. I have no problems to believe that the idea of wavy blades got carried with Hindu culture to SE Asia but early keris seem to have straight blades... Also there are quite a few swords with flaring out bases vaguely resembling the gonjo in keris. However, I have yet to see an asymmetrical (not to mention separately forged) gonjo in Indian blades. Moreover, this broad base is part of the hilt rather than the blade which makes for a very different production process. So while I can see some similarities I'm far from convinced that these Indian pieces are really related to keris. Regards, Kai

8th December 2006, 03:56 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sorry I don’t have much time, but remember that the peacock, besides from being a royal bird, and what has been described already, it was, like the goose, a very good watch bird. When someone, came into their territory, a palace garden, they made a lot of noise. A thing, which has been discussed some time ago, is the three dots in a triangle. I don’t know what it means; I can only guess, but does anyone know it? Colours and gemstones are also to be looked into, as both have a symbolic meaning, flowers have as well but it is a longer story.