+VLFBERHT: name? Brand? Invocation?

urbanspaceman · 10th August 2025, 10:30 AM

This is a foreign territory for me except in one instance: having been in photographic sales (cameras, lenses etc) and also in Hi-Fi sales back in the seventies and 'eighties when performing wasn't keeping a roof over my head.
What I think we must remember is that traders have never changed, in that they get out of bed in the mornings to make as much money as possible (seems perfectly reasonable). "CAVEAT EMPTOR" is the example of our response to those tricky dealers who think nothing of adding anything to a product's description in the hope it will stimulate sales.
It prevails right across history and, naturally, still exists everywhere today. "DIGITAL" was appended to all and sundry back in the 'nineties as a way to imply state-of-the-art technology - even if it was a washing machine that they were selling!
Traders being well aware of the ultra-high standard of the ULFBERHT blades (that were probably in very short supply) would be quite content to add the moniker to anything in their stock. I don't know enough about this issue to apply this to those blades in question but consider today's system of making subtle modifications to the moniker in order not to contravene trademarks etc; or to suggest "even better!" of the product.
Just thought I might remind everyone of the realities of retail.

Jim McDougall · 10th August 2025, 02:31 PM

Well noted Keith! and this area is totally a learning curve for me as well, and more fascinating as we move onward.

These practices of imitation and commerce are absolutely nothing new, despite obviously changes in technology etc. human nature prevails;

"...the more things change, the more they are the same"
Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr
in "Les Guepes" 1849
French journalist, novelist

urbanspaceman · 10th August 2025, 06:32 PM

Hey Jim, this is just one area that you have opened up for exploration on the forum but, ironically enough, it is probably the most important.
I have asked a few questions myself over my time spent getting to the source of the Shotley Bridge story and I am still exploring the perimeters of that tale and finding that answers are not readily available.
I keep thinking that - being such a newcomer - others, far more experienced, must have already tread these paths but... one thing I am almost absolutely convinced of is, if it was ever written down, you will have a copy in your boundless library. So when it stumps you too I realise this is yet another area remaining unexplored over the centuries.
I can see why so many collectors constrain their efforts to 1800 onwards. Personally, I prefer the challenge. Glutton for punishment.

Jim McDougall · 11th August 2025, 01:43 AM

Very true, most of this history and study of these ancient arms entails some of the most arcane material imaginable, and gets very scientific and technical , very much my weakest areas. But recently I have become determined to finally dig deeper into this material, all the more perplexing due to the conflicting ideas and perspectives of the scholarly material which is at hand.

Thanks for the note on my library, which is indeed formidable as it is more of an archaeological dig than simple pulling a book off a shelf.

Quite honestly I am virtually always stumped on something, which is wht I write here. I pour out compiled data from my research (why my missives are so loquacious) hoping for corrections and elucidation.

It is not gluttony for punishment, but an obsessive quest for resolution.

Ive learned more than can be imagined tracking with you on the mysteries of Shotley! and hope to keep following those methods and tenacity into this most formidable area. This is the place to do it, as those already active on this thread are among the 'heavy hitters' already well into this material.

Lee · 11th August 2025, 02:30 PM

Reventlov - most interesting, illuminating and compelling arguments that make good sense to me. Thank you!

Entirely peripheral to this discussion, I especially enjoyed the small beast on the ring at the start of the name as it so reminds me of similar figures on Scottish annular brooches so many centuries later. I wonder what these were intended to represent.

Urban.. and Jim - I guess it makes sense that inscriptions and markings that could also carry additional meaning or attributes would have been preferred and the use and copying of these marks in time and place is most interesting. Thank you.

Reventlov · Yesterday, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Reventlov - most interesting, illuminating and compelling arguments that make good sense to me. Thank you!

Entirely peripheral to this discussion, I especially enjoyed the small beast on the ring at the start of the name as it so reminds me of similar figures on Scottish annular brooches so many centuries later. I wonder what these were intended to represent.

Thanks Lee!

I see on the ring a rabbit, and on the brooch... a squirrel? Not so impressive as Jim's wolves!

10th August 2025, 10:30 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 701	never mind the quality... feel the width This is a foreign territory for me except in one instance: having been in photographic sales (cameras, lenses etc) and also in Hi-Fi sales back in the seventies and 'eighties when performing wasn't keeping a roof over my head. What I think we must remember is that traders have never changed, in that they get out of bed in the mornings to make as much money as possible (seems perfectly reasonable). "CAVEAT EMPTOR" is the example of our response to those tricky dealers who think nothing of adding anything to a product's description in the hope it will stimulate sales. It prevails right across history and, naturally, still exists everywhere today. "DIGITAL" was appended to all and sundry back in the 'nineties as a way to imply state-of-the-art technology - even if it was a washing machine that they were selling! Traders being well aware of the ultra-high standard of the ULFBERHT blades (that were probably in very short supply) would be quite content to add the moniker to anything in their stock. I don't know enough about this issue to apply this to those blades in question but consider today's system of making subtle modifications to the moniker in order not to contravene trademarks etc; or to suggest "even better!" of the product. Just thought I might remind everyone of the realities of retail.

10th August 2025, 02:31 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,494	Caveat Emptor Well noted Keith! and this area is totally a learning curve for me as well, and more fascinating as we move onward. These practices of imitation and commerce are absolutely nothing new, despite obviously changes in technology etc. human nature prevails; "...the more things change, the more they are the same" Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr in "Les Guepes" 1849 French journalist, novelist

10th August 2025, 06:32 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 701	turn over every stone Hey Jim, this is just one area that you have opened up for exploration on the forum but, ironically enough, it is probably the most important. I have asked a few questions myself over my time spent getting to the source of the Shotley Bridge story and I am still exploring the perimeters of that tale and finding that answers are not readily available. I keep thinking that - being such a newcomer - others, far more experienced, must have already tread these paths but... one thing I am almost absolutely convinced of is, if it was ever written down, you will have a copy in your boundless library. So when it stumps you too I realise this is yet another area remaining unexplored over the centuries. I can see why so many collectors constrain their efforts to 1800 onwards. Personally, I prefer the challenge. Glutton for punishment.

11th August 2025, 02:30 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 942	Reventlov - most interesting, illuminating and compelling arguments that make good sense to me. Thank you! Entirely peripheral to this discussion, I especially enjoyed the small beast on the ring at the start of the name as it so reminds me of similar figures on Scottish annular brooches so many centuries later. I wonder what these were intended to represent. Urban.. and Jim - I guess it makes sense that inscriptions and markings that could also carry additional meaning or attributes would have been preferred and the use and copying of these marks in time and place is most interesting. Thank you. Attached Images

11th August 2025, 01:43 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,494	Very true, most of this history and study of these ancient arms entails some of the most arcane material imaginable, and gets very scientific and technical , very much my weakest areas. But recently I have become determined to finally dig deeper into this material, all the more perplexing due to the conflicting ideas and perspectives of the scholarly material which is at hand. Thanks for the note on my library, which is indeed formidable as it is more of an archaeological dig than simple pulling a book off a shelf. Quite honestly I am virtually always stumped on something, which is wht I write here. I pour out compiled data from my research (why my missives are so loquacious) hoping for corrections and elucidation. It is not gluttony for punishment, but an obsessive quest for resolution. Ive learned more than can be imagined tracking with you on the mysteries of Shotley! and hope to keep following those methods and tenacity into this most formidable area. This is the place to do it, as those already active on this thread are among the 'heavy hitters' already well into this material.