Later-era saber kris for comment

drac2k · 15th August 2023, 04:27 PM

As an after mention, the heading under the plate read "No.1 Straight-edged steel kampilan captured by the expedition under Capt. J.J. Pershing,1903, Moro, Lake Lanao, Mindanao."
Once again, I am note knowledgeable enough to comment on the age of this featured sword, but it does show that this type of engraving was done at least back to 1903 and if this was indeed a captured item, it wasn't done merely as a tourist item embellishment.

xasterix · 16th August 2023, 09:46 AM

Dear Drac and Rick:

Thanks for the additional comments! Will definitely consider these data.

RobT · 17th August 2023, 12:31 AM

Hi All,

I went back and forth for an entire day before finally deciding to make this post. I really don't like to get up on a soapbox and I sincerely hope no one is offended but the mention in this thread of a hilt epoxied in place made my skin crawl. Normally, I would preface my remarks with "in my opinion" but in this case I will say without the slightest equivocation that components of antique or collectible weapons should never be affixed by any method or with any substance that would require damage to any of the pieces to get them loose again. Epoxy is at the top of the list of things to be avoided. For securing hilts, cutler's resin is sufficient, easy to make, and easy to undo with heat. There are a number of online how-to videos with various formulae. Even for repairing a crack in wood, epoxy is undesirable because it is thick and will leave a glue line. Modern cross link polymer and cyanoacrylate glues are appropriate for these types of repairs if dry clamping shows that the crack can be drawn together and glued invisibly. Again, I hope that I didn't offend anybody but I couldn't let this go. I am sure that, if there are any forum members that are involved with antique furniture restoration, they will agree with me wholeheartedly.

Sincerely,
RobT

xasterix · 17th August 2023, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

I went back and forth for an entire day before finally deciding to make this post. I really don't like to get up on a soapbox and I sincerely hope no one is offended but the mention in this thread of a hilt epoxied in place made my skin crawl. Normally, I would preface my remarks with "in my opinion" but in this case I will say without the slightest equivocation that components of antique or collectible weapons should never be affixed by any method or with any substance that would require damage to any of the pieces to get them loose again. Epoxy is at the top of the list of things to be avoided. For securing hilts, cutler's resin is sufficient, easy to make, and easy to undo with heat. There are a number of online how-to videos with various formulae. Even for repairing a crack in wood, epoxy is undesirable because it is thick and will leave a glue line. Modern cross link polymer and cyanoacrylate glues are appropriate for these types of repairs if dry clamping shows that the crack can be drawn together and glued invisibly. Again, I hope that I didn't offend anybody but I couldn't let this go. I am sure that, if there are any forum members that are involved with antique furniture restoration, they will agree with me wholeheartedly.

Sincerely,
RobT

Hello Rob!

Firstly: I understand your concern, and that's a common mindset among provenance-based antique collectors. There is a focus on keeping an item "as is" and close to the original item as possible, although I contend that this is where the "Ship of Theseus" paradox comes in. IMHO, any modification to a piece, no matter how close to the original material was used, is already a modification nonetheless. The only way to keep a piece "frozen in time" or "consistent with its original provenance" is simply to let it be- which, for a large number of antique Moro and Filipino tradblades- is in their rusted, dilapidated, or incomplete condition.

Secondly: I secure my pieces with epoxy because I do not intend these as display-only pieces. As several in this forum already know- Kino, Ian, Leif, Gavin, Jeff, and others- I restore my pieces in order to wield and cut different media with them. It's part of my personal study as a student of the Moro Fighting Arts. Epoxy is the best adhesive to secure a blade to the hilt, especially in the case of antiques being "called back from retirement" and put under cutting tests. This practice has been done with the approval and guidance of Moro elders, in order for us to actualize the preserved martial methods into blades from bygone eras, while maintaining a degree of safety and avoiding accidents such as flying blades (this has happened several times with antiques whose original adhesives have dried up). To note- Moro blades made in modern time are installed to the hilt with epoxy, as generations of artisans have noted its superior strength compared to other adhesives. It's simply a modern and accessible solution for extensive blade usage in a modern era.

Thirdly: I bought the item, so it's mine to do as I wish. There are loads of other samples, better and complete ones, stored up or displayed in museums and collections all over the world, in all their as-is provenance glory. In my case, actualizing generations' worth of martial methods on the actual artifacts takes precedence over attempting to keep a piece frozen in time. I take extra care in describing any modern modifications or materials used in my pieces (I do this for all my forum and published-media posts).

I bear you no ill-will, and I don't expect you to agree with my reasons; but I just wanted to state those for the record.

drac2k · 17th August 2023, 04:01 PM

Both of you have valid points; one of you for preserving the integrity of the artifact and the other for preserving the ancient practice of the martial arts. Each equally important and based on one's particular pursuit of knowledge.

Ian · 19th August 2023, 11:49 PM

Rob and Xas,

Thank you for the manner you both expressed your views on this subject of restoration and preservation. All views are valid on this matter, and the Forum is stronger for having different viewpoints discussed frankly and without rancor. As you both know, this has not always been the case on this Forum.

It's always nice to have serious adults in the room who know how to respectfully disagree. Thank you.

Ian

Interested Party · 20th August 2023, 04:45 PM

To begin, beautiful blades. Thanks to everyone for increasing the data base. This is an interesting and frank discussion of the issues I am sure many of the readers here have wrestled with internally. I have used tradition and modern repairs on antique pieces as did my ancestors before me. Usually, it fell along the two lines of thought. 1) What is the best method to repair damage that it will look the best and last for future generations? 2) Is the item still in its working life or is this piece now a time capsule?

I have tended to prefer traditional methods when they serve the purposes above. It sounds to me that Xas has some serious concerns regarding the safety Culters resins and large blades that repeatably receive impacts? Is this accurate? If so, do you have a ballpark of how many cuts it takes before a traditional resin begins to fail? This would be in interesting historical foot note. Would we consider that the working life of these blades in question is still continuing??

Best wishes to everyone.
IP

17th August 2023, 12:31 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 533	I Cannot Remain Silent Hi All, I went back and forth for an entire day before finally deciding to make this post. I really don't like to get up on a soapbox and I sincerely hope no one is offended but the mention in this thread of a hilt epoxied in place made my skin crawl. Normally, I would preface my remarks with "in my opinion" but in this case I will say without the slightest equivocation that components of antique or collectible weapons should never be affixed by any method or with any substance that would require damage to any of the pieces to get them loose again. Epoxy is at the top of the list of things to be avoided. For securing hilts, cutler's resin is sufficient, easy to make, and easy to undo with heat. There are a number of online how-to videos with various formulae. Even for repairing a crack in wood, epoxy is undesirable because it is thick and will leave a glue line. Modern cross link polymer and cyanoacrylate glues are appropriate for these types of repairs if dry clamping shows that the crack can be drawn together and glued invisibly. Again, I hope that I didn't offend anybody but I couldn't let this go. I am sure that, if there are any forum members that are involved with antique furniture restoration, they will agree with me wholeheartedly. Sincerely, RobT Last edited by RobT; 17th August 2023 at 12:39 AM. Reason: add'l info

19th August 2023, 11:49 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Well said Rob and Xas, Thank you for the manner you both expressed your views on this subject of restoration and preservation. All views are valid on this matter, and the Forum is stronger for having different viewpoints discussed frankly and without rancor. As you both know, this has not always been the case on this Forum. It's always nice to have serious adults in the room who know how to respectfully disagree. Thank you. Ian

20th August 2023, 04:45 PM	#7
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 491	Great Stuff To begin, beautiful blades. Thanks to everyone for increasing the data base. This is an interesting and frank discussion of the issues I am sure many of the readers here have wrestled with internally. I have used tradition and modern repairs on antique pieces as did my ancestors before me. Usually, it fell along the two lines of thought. 1) What is the best method to repair damage that it will look the best and last for future generations? 2) Is the item still in its working life or is this piece now a time capsule? I have tended to prefer traditional methods when they serve the purposes above. It sounds to me that Xas has some serious concerns regarding the safety Culters resins and large blades that repeatably receive impacts? Is this accurate? If so, do you have a ballpark of how many cuts it takes before a traditional resin begins to fail? This would be in interesting historical foot note. Would we consider that the working life of these blades in question is still continuing?? Best wishes to everyone. IP

15th August 2023, 04:27 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	As an after mention, the heading under the plate read "No.1 Straight-edged steel kampilan captured by the expedition under Capt. J.J. Pershing,1903, Moro, Lake Lanao, Mindanao." Once again, I am note knowledgeable enough to comment on the age of this featured sword, but it does show that this type of engraving was done at least back to 1903 and if this was indeed a captured item, it wasn't done merely as a tourist item embellishment.

16th August 2023, 09:46 AM	#2
xasterix Member Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 670	Dear Drac and Rick: Thanks for the additional comments! Will definitely consider these data.

17th August 2023, 04:01 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Both of you have valid points; one of you for preserving the integrity of the artifact and the other for preserving the ancient practice of the martial arts. Each equally important and based on one's particular pursuit of knowledge.