Later-era saber kris for comment

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Ian

i also have a regular kris blade with the same decoration and without a hilt. I had a panabas blade also with this decoration, and I think I've seen a Moro spear head also with the same style of incised decoration.

I agree with David, probably mid-20th C (1950s, 1960s).

The metal from which my kris is constructed is a light color and appeared "soft" from the manner in which it had been incised. That made me wonder whether it was aluminum or an alloy.

The okir on mine reminds me of Maranao work.

Thanks for this data Ian! I agree that the origin of such engraved blades is likely a Maranao or Maguindanao area. Mine is also "soft" but retains an edge pretty well; when I etched it, it turned dark all over, so I was guessing it was at least mono-hardened.

[drac2k]

This question often comes up and while I can not comment on your blade, this style of engraving has been around since at least prior to 1926(see enclosed "Krieger 1926 Philippine Ethnic Weapons Plate 7.png). I have seen pictures of similarly engraved captured weapons by General Pershing from the Smithsonian, so I'm guessing this mode of design could go back to the early 1900's or before.

[David]

Originally Posted by drac2k

This question often comes up and while I can not comment on your blade, this style of engraving has been around since at least prior to 1926(see enclosed "Krieger 1926 Philippine Ethnic Weapons Plate 7.png). I have seen pictures of similarly engraved captured weapons by General Pershing from the Smithsonian, so I'm guessing this mode of design could go back to the early 1900's or before.

I don't think there is any question of Moro blades being engraved on the blades dating back to the early 1900s, but i am afraid that the illustration you have presented does not really show well enough if it is done in the same style. But we have to look at more than just similar motifs, since okir patterns are traditional and are used over long periods of time. We need to look at execution and think about what tools might have made the engraving. To my eye the engravings on this keris look machine made rather than hand incised. And there is not separate gangya, which also hints put at a particular timeline, even though there were some old exceptions to that rule. I still feel comfortable dating this to the 1950s-60s.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I don't think there is any question of Moro blades being engraved on the blades dating back to the early 1900s, but i am afraid that the illustration you have presented does not really show well enough if it is done in the same style. But we have to look at more than just similar motifs, since okir patterns are traditional and are used over long periods of time. We need to look at execution and think about what tools might have made the engraving. To my eye the engravings on this keris look machine made rather than hand incised. And there is not separate gangya, which also hints put at a particular timeline, even though there were some old exceptions to that rule. I still feel comfortable dating this to the 1950s-60s.

I think drac2k has an engraved panabas sample corresponding (or rather close to) the Krieger plate here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20194

Looking at it closely...the engraving reminds me of my kris. Hmmm.

To my current knowledge, the Maranao people only started using machines for any blade-related operations post-1980s already.

[RobT]

xasterix,

In your initial post in this thread you wrote, "I didn't attach an asang-asang anymore because it was mono-construction anyway, and the carved art extends into the 'vacant' area for the clamp." I believe that the asang-asang (asang-asangs when there are two) is intended as additional support/shock absorption to prevent the tang from torquing in the hilt when a blow is struck. As such, whether the blade is mono construction or not is irrelevant. Just my two cents but, were the sword mine, I would replace the asang-asang even though it covers up part of the engraving.

Sincerely,
RobT

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by RobT

xasterix,

In your initial post in this thread you wrote, "I didn't attach an asang-asang anymore because it was mono-construction anyway, and the carved art extends into the 'vacant' area for the clamp." I believe that the asang-asang (asang-asangs when there are two) is intended as additional support/shock absorption to prevent the tang from torquing in the hilt when a blow is struck. As such, whether the blade is mono construction or not is irrelevant. Just my two cents but, were the sword mine, I would replace the asang-asang even though it covers up part of the engraving.

Sincerely,
RobT

Good point Rob, that's indeed among the original purposes of the asang-asang. I'm planning to install an unattached one (minus the clamp extension, since the hilt cavity and ferrule are epoxied already) in the future to complete the "look" at least.

[Rick]

I don't think I've seen any examples of these decorated Moro swords that wouldn't be fit to use in a combat situation.
Not to say that these were or were not made with an eye for sales to world travelers.
They are certainly well made and quite functional for something that may be intended for sale outside the culture.