my last keris

Marcokeris · 3rd May 2023, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gustav & Marco.

With cundrik & cengkrong, the hilt position is sometimes reversed, in my experience, the position of the blade in the wrongko is not.

The picture posted with the blade over the wrongko shows an incorrectly mounted blade in both positions, if the blade is original to the wrongko we will find that the top of the gonjo sits with the sirah cecak & the buntut urang both sitting within the top line of the atasan, it is permissible for a small part of the gonjo to rise above the top line of the gambar at its center, it is not permissible for the gonjo to sit as depicted.

I'm a bit with David here:- I simply do not understand the reason for this extended discussion on an aberration, I do not understand what the objective of the discussion is.

We have a couple of examples keris which by any normal standard are deviant from the norm.

So?

Some people have strange ideas, even in Jawa, if somebody wants his keris mounted back to front I guess he will not be strung between two saplings and gradually be pulled apart as they straighten.

We have a very definite anomaly.

Why not just accept it for what it is?

Sorry again Alan, with all my respect, but this is one of the answers which, unfortunately, slowly push collectors and scholars away from the VKF

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2023, 12:41 PM

Marco, I would assess my post #93 as polite, and in my understanding absolutely factual.

I do acknowledge that my understanding is not perfect, nor is my knowledge, but it is understanding & knowledge gained in large part from two ranking empu in who were members of the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy, from several members of the original anak-anak ASKI, from 70 years of keris study, from around 60 years of buying and selling keris, both locally and internationally.

If you consider my style of writing to be offensive, then I suggest with the greatest good will, that you simply do not read what I write.

From the very beginning of my involvement in this discussion group, I have not participated with any intention of having fun, of amusing myself, or of making friends, my only objective has been to impart some of my knowledge & experience to others.

My training under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo was not without a price, that price was my solemn vow that I would do two things, firstly I was required to swear that I would undertake the preservation & restoration of any keris I had access to & that needed this attention, secondly I was required to swear that I would to the best of my ability attempt to spread an understanding of keris culture as I knew it to be.

Marco, if you find my attempts at fulfilling my promises to be objectionable, well then, just ignore me.

Marcokeris · 3rd May 2023, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Marco, I would assess my post #93 as polite, and in my understanding absolutely factual.

I do acknowledge that my understanding is not perfect, nor is my knowledge, but it is understanding & knowledge gained in large part from two ranking empu in who were members of the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy, from several members of the original anak-anak ASKI, from 70 years of keris study, from around 60 years of buying and selling keris, both locally and internationally.

If you consider my style of writing to be offensive, then I suggest with the greatest good will, that you simply do not read what I write.

From the very beginning of my involvement in this discussion group, I have not participated with any intention of having fun, of amusing myself, or of making friends, my only objective has been to impart some of my knowledge & experience to others.

My training under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo was not without a price, that price was my solemn vow that I would do two things, firstly I was required to swear that I would undertake the preservation & restoration of any keris I had access to & that needed this attention, secondly I was required to swear that I would to the best of my ability attempt to spread an understanding of keris culture as I knew it to be.

Marco, if you find my attempts at fulfilling my promises to be objectionable, well then, just ignore me.

Alan I absolutely didn't want to be offensive as I think you didn't want to be you towards me but I thought it was also right to answer to you.

Ok, fine. I accept your answer. .. no problem, even if I don't think I wrote a heresy or something that clashes with a dogma.

BUT, I repeat, It's just a real pity that the VKF from what it was at the beginning: a new, good, interesting place in which to discuss or to post pics or even support, perhaps wrong things but in good faith, bringing evidence and without any hidden intent ... in short: a nice open café ......has become to my eyes something like a fortress with a drawbridge always ready to be raised immediately even when there is no one who, in reality, wants to attack it.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2023, 01:30 PM

Very well Marco, all understood, and for the record, I have not found any of your posts to be offensive. However, you do clearly find a post --- or perhaps more than one post --- of mine to be so objectionable in style that it has the potential to cause some people to go running in a direction away from us.

My attitude might be a bit old fashioned about this, but the fact is that nobody can please everybody, and if some people do not wish to learn, then nobody can make them learn.

Personally, I cannot see the fortress nor its drawbridge that you can see.

What I can see is fairly strictly regulated discussion group that was created out of the desire to remove impoliteness and the idiocy of on-line challenges to duels at dawn, from discussions about keris.

We all know what the rules are, and we nearly always play the game by these rules. I see this discussion group as a place where almost no nonsense surfaces but plain, ordinary old fashioned facts and opinions are given free reign.

One thing that does occur to me is this:- the keris itself is a difficult, a very difficult, artefact to come to terms with, there are many ways in which to think about the keris, and some of these ways are not necessarily inclusive of others.

The FB people seem to play the game by different rules to the ones that we adhere to here, so maybe what we are experiencing is something similar to a generation gap.

Our style here might well not suit the people from more recent generations.

But whatever the causes of a fall off in participation might be here, I doubt that anything will change, the people who want social involvement and a feel-good experience will continue with FB, the people who need a slightly more sober approach will continue their involvement with us.

3rd May 2023, 12:41 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Marco, I would assess my post #93 as polite, and in my understanding absolutely factual. I do acknowledge that my understanding is not perfect, nor is my knowledge, but it is understanding & knowledge gained in large part from two ranking empu in who were members of the Surakarta Karaton hierarchy, from several members of the original anak-anak ASKI, from 70 years of keris study, from around 60 years of buying and selling keris, both locally and internationally. If you consider my style of writing to be offensive, then I suggest with the greatest good will, that you simply do not read what I write. From the very beginning of my involvement in this discussion group, I have not participated with any intention of having fun, of amusing myself, or of making friends, my only objective has been to impart some of my knowledge & experience to others. My training under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijoyo was not without a price, that price was my solemn vow that I would do two things, firstly I was required to swear that I would undertake the preservation & restoration of any keris I had access to & that needed this attention, secondly I was required to swear that I would to the best of my ability attempt to spread an understanding of keris culture as I knew it to be. Marco, if you find my attempts at fulfilling my promises to be objectionable, well then, just ignore me.

3rd May 2023, 01:30 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,988	Very well Marco, all understood, and for the record, I have not found any of your posts to be offensive. However, you do clearly find a post --- or perhaps more than one post --- of mine to be so objectionable in style that it has the potential to cause some people to go running in a direction away from us. My attitude might be a bit old fashioned about this, but the fact is that nobody can please everybody, and if some people do not wish to learn, then nobody can make them learn. Personally, I cannot see the fortress nor its drawbridge that you can see. What I can see is fairly strictly regulated discussion group that was created out of the desire to remove impoliteness and the idiocy of on-line challenges to duels at dawn, from discussions about keris. We all know what the rules are, and we nearly always play the game by these rules. I see this discussion group as a place where almost no nonsense surfaces but plain, ordinary old fashioned facts and opinions are given free reign. One thing that does occur to me is this:- the keris itself is a difficult, a very difficult, artefact to come to terms with, there are many ways in which to think about the keris, and some of these ways are not necessarily inclusive of others. The FB people seem to play the game by different rules to the ones that we adhere to here, so maybe what we are experiencing is something similar to a generation gap. Our style here might well not suit the people from more recent generations. But whatever the causes of a fall off in participation might be here, I doubt that anything will change, the people who want social involvement and a feel-good experience will continue with FB, the people who need a slightly more sober approach will continue their involvement with us.