Enquiry about a Bali keris motif

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Anthony.

That does not look like Bali to my eye, 35 conventional count luk?

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

come on --- pull the other one.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

Valid point i had not considered.

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thank you Anthony.

That does not look like Bali to my eye, 35 conventional count luk?

Then the sogokan with luk?

Not a real good idea to diss Siwa. Not good at all.

come on --- pull the other one.

Nice one Alan,
Possibly the punchiest and best comment I've read on this forum thus far! Yes, not a good plan to diss the Destroyer (or the Renovator as I prefer to refer to Lord Shiva) !

[A. G. Maisey]

So, if some of us can agree that perhaps a degree of wisdom was absent in whoever made this blade, is it possible that this blade was made by a person who respected Lord Siwa?

[SidJ]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So, if some of us can agree that perhaps a degree of wisdom was absent in whoever made this blade, is it possible that this blade was made by a person who respected Lord Siwa?

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

[David]

Originally Posted by SidJ

Perhaps the old meanings underlying the structure were lost or not considered important enough. Perhaps the influence of Hinduism is fading away at least away from Bali?

Well, the observation does perhaps force us to reassess the time frame, and possibly the location in which this keris was created.

[A. G. Maisey]

During the period I have been closely associated with Jawa & Bali, & that means approx. the last 50 odd years, I have only very rarely encountered what I could consider to be "old" understandings of the keris, and the people who had these understandings were, for the most part, not craftsmen, nor collectors, nor dealers, they were mostly people who had no particular interest in keris at all.

So yes, I am inclined to believe that a lot of the ideas that might have been associated with the keris at times in the past are now no longer a part of keris understanding.

The belief system that is Bali-Hindu has always varied from the belief system that we regard as mainstream Hindu. In very simple terms Bali-Hindu prior to the Independence of Indonesia was a mixture of Hindu-Buddhist- & indigenous beliefs, and it still is, but the requirements of the Abrahamic religions, and specifically Islam, that came with the formation of the new state of Indonesia required the Bali Hindu religion to adopt certain changes in order to retain the legitimacy of the Balinese system of belief, so now, we do not call the Balinese system of belief "Bali Hindu", we call it "Bali Dharma", or more correctly "Agama Hindu Dharma".

There is a lot about this on the net, but good old Wiki puts it all into a teacup:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balinese_Hinduism

[Gustav]

The inspiration for this specimen, so it seems, can be found in Hales book, p. 125, Nr. 306.

I agree with everything Alan has said regarding it, would like to add an observation about Pamor. There are only three layers of Pamor material on a side, which is absolutely OK for Bali/Lombok Keris - but this Pamor material is very thin, very uniformly thin, and of very uniform consistence/colour. It seems, whoever made it, likely did have access to prefabricated (in a Western way) material in plates/sheets.

I know of at least one Keris with long Sogokan following Luk, which is genuine Bali. It was taken after the Puputan in Denpasar in 1906. I have seen a couple of other old Keris with this feature, but they could also have been from Lombok.