Brass hilt briquet type hanger....British cutlass?

David R · 19th November 2022, 08:35 PM

I would look across the Channel for this one. Britain did not really go for brass hilts after the 1790's as far as I know..... I am confident of correction if I am wrong.

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2022, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I would look across the Channel for this one. Britain did not really go for brass hilts after the 1790's as far as I know..... I am confident of correction if I am wrong.

There were issues against brass hilts in England some time before having to do with Cutlers Co. etc. but they very much did use brass hilts in many cases. This saber I think may be naval, as it corresponds to others I have seen that were by EGG, and around 1790s, this is Wooley & Deakin (1801-03) and Mark Eley had another. I have had two dragoon officers swords c. 1770s in brass. Brass was key for gilt work on many officers swords.
You are right though, the inspiration DID come from across the channel for this sword.

M ELEY · 20th November 2022, 09:12 AM

Hello Jim. I do recall discussing these interesting briquet patterns, including ones with a small anchor stamp. The French were indeed the first to embrace naval cutlasses with a solid brass hilt and Gilkerson (Boarder's Away, my 'bible' and go-to always!

) has covered them nicely, showing their development. Likewise, regarding the briguet, which came directly from these French 'sea' patterns, they probably would have ben well-received in desparate times to arm volunteers against invasion. The reason the brass hilts were popular on sea swords was for their anti-rust properties in the briney salt air.

Another deductive thought was that most naval hangers were also popular/carried by infantrymen, so could the briquet (being an infantry-type) make the same crossover to naval usage? I've always wondered about this. If so, I'd wager it would only have been in the scenario you proposed (desparate measures for voluntary forces or militias or merchant-type craft). Still, I know there doesn't appear to be any record to such use in Britain unless someone out there can enlighten us!?

Didn't we also definitely determine that there were briquets (not the French pre-naval brass gripped types, but actual briquets!) with the anchor stamp? Perhaps my memory has become cloudy again!

M ELEY · 20th November 2022, 09:14 AM

P.S. I still have that awesome hanger of the Wooley/Deacon type with gold wash to the hilt and classic Montmorancy blade! Just whistles British naval officer!

Here it is! The thread concerning this briquet and the anchor stamp-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+anchor+stamp

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2022, 11:56 AM

Thank you Capn!! I hoped you'd enter this foray into the mystery of this anomaly. As you agree this curious old 'briquet' might well have to do with this period of pre-Napoleonic times in England, which seem never to have been well documented.
When the early writers on British swords such as Ffoulkes had little clue on these, which later were carried forth in Wilkinson writings (and again by Claude Blair) claiming they were British 'foot artillery hangers......these became the classification Gospel for collectors, at least in degree.

Actually these were never a highly collectible item, and most that were ever seen were of course French, which were well known (hence the colloquial term briquet). It was noted later in an article that no British example of 'briquet' was ever known that had substantiating markings identifying it as such, had ever been seen.

It was that several examples had been seen in the Tower dated 1830 which gave the impression these had been British.

However, as I had explained in that previous thread (thank you for the link!) the cartouche on this example with the distinctive cartouche with initials PS is compelling. It does NOT coincide with any type of marking used in weapons of other countries, including France.

It does however correspond to the early hallmark stamp of Paul Storr from c. 1792+. While this type stamp of course was used only by artisans using precious metals, it is known that in cases some did place stamps with initials regardless of metal used.
In these 'times of concern' where there was a notable civilian movement of ersatz defensive measures, it is noted in one reference that workers and artisans in many trades joined in to produce needed supplies and even weaponry.
It seems quite possible that Paul Storr, already working with other artisans closely aligned with the Royal House, might 'do his part' by creating a number of these hangers for 'the cause' and proudly place his well earned mark as testament to that.

The paucity of examples of these munitions grade weapons is directly related to their commonality overall, and that they were 'in bulk' excellent source for much needed brass metal, and were likely scrapped in huge volume.

A rather grim note on the post war use of the materials and other was recently found when I was researching the battlefields of Waterloo and other actions associated. It is well known that huge numbers of casualties were buried in huge mass graves there, however recent excavations revealed there are virtually no remains to be found archaeologically (save several noted graves of several individuals).
The horrifying fact seems to have been that these huge caches of remains were dug up to be put to use, with bone ground into fertilizer which became in scale a commodity much in the way Egyptian mummies were unceremoniously used.

While most weaponry found on these fields was of course taken as surplus, many more common items became of course smelting fodder, which would include of course these kinds of solid brass hilt swords.

With regard to the anchor stamp, in review of the previous thread on this topic, it seems that was a known Swedish mark used generally and not specific to naval items.

CutlassCollector · 20th November 2022, 12:34 PM

I have never owned one of these and so can not add much to the discussion although I have found it confusing as to where they fit into the cutlass world.

They are often offered for sale as British Cutlass or French cutlass but are not covered in the British or French literature on the official patterns. In Le Sabre D'abordage, Petard describes a few brass hilted cutlasses from the end of the 18th century but not the briquet.

Of course that does not preclude them from sea service in the private sector or other associated naval units as well as land based use as already mentioned.

What puzzles me is the common pattern attributed to several different countries. Were they made and sold to any buyer like Solingen blades or just copied?

corrado26 · 20th November 2022, 02:05 PM

By "Mervyn Milton, The policeman's lot, London 1985, p. 108" one can read, that "the actual briquet never made it across the English Channel. This type of weapon does not appear in the UK. Prey pieces in a new way are not known. The "Police Swords and Hangers" are complex pieces, mostly made at "Parker, Field & Sons, 233 Holborn, London". So the sword in question should come from the continent, where it was in use in lots of countries as nearly all German states, France, Switzerland, Spain, Austria and Belgium.

David R · 20th November 2022, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There were issues against brass hilts in England some time before having to do with Cutlers Co. etc. but they very much did use brass hilts in many cases. This saber I think may be naval, as it corresponds to others I have seen that were by EGG, and around 1790s, this is Wooley & Deakin (1801-03) and Mark Eley had another. I have had two dragoon officers swords c. 1770s in brass. Brass was key for gilt work on many officers swords.
You are right though, the inspiration DID come from across the channel for this sword.

I was meaning the all brass hanger style hilts so popular on the continent... Brass guards and back-straps were ubiquitous for Infantry and Naval officers of course.... Iron/steel preferred for cavalry and black painted cast and wrought iron for naval cutlasses.

Jim McDougall · 20th November 2022, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

I was meaning the all brass hanger style hilts so popular on the continent... Brass guards and back-straps were ubiquitous for Infantry and Naval officers of course.... Iron/steel preferred for cavalry and black painted cast and wrought iron for naval cutlasses.

Thanks David for clarifying, I misunderstood. I recall decades ago when I got the Wooley & Deakin sword where it was classified a cavalry officers sword. But the blade was so short for cavalry, later I discovered that in naval situations there were cavalry and infantry patterns used of course.

20th November 2022, 09:12 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Jim. I do recall discussing these interesting briquet patterns, including ones with a small anchor stamp. The French were indeed the first to embrace naval cutlasses with a solid brass hilt and Gilkerson (Boarder's Away, my 'bible' and go-to always!) has covered them nicely, showing their development. Likewise, regarding the briguet, which came directly from these French 'sea' patterns, they probably would have ben well-received in desparate times to arm volunteers against invasion. The reason the brass hilts were popular on sea swords was for their anti-rust properties in the briney salt air. Another deductive thought was that most naval hangers were also popular/carried by infantrymen, so could the briquet (being an infantry-type) make the same crossover to naval usage? I've always wondered about this. If so, I'd wager it would only have been in the scenario you proposed (desparate measures for voluntary forces or militias or merchant-type craft). Still, I know there doesn't appear to be any record to such use in Britain unless someone out there can enlighten us!? Didn't we also definitely determine that there were briquets (not the French pre-naval brass gripped types, but actual briquets!) with the anchor stamp? Perhaps my memory has become cloudy again!

20th November 2022, 11:56 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Capn!! I hoped you'd enter this foray into the mystery of this anomaly. As you agree this curious old 'briquet' might well have to do with this period of pre-Napoleonic times in England, which seem never to have been well documented. When the early writers on British swords such as Ffoulkes had little clue on these, which later were carried forth in Wilkinson writings (and again by Claude Blair) claiming they were British 'foot artillery hangers......these became the classification Gospel for collectors, at least in degree. Actually these were never a highly collectible item, and most that were ever seen were of course French, which were well known (hence the colloquial term briquet). It was noted later in an article that no British example of 'briquet' was ever known that had substantiating markings identifying it as such, had ever been seen. It was that several examples had been seen in the Tower dated 1830 which gave the impression these had been British. However, as I had explained in that previous thread (thank you for the link!) the cartouche on this example with the distinctive cartouche with initials PS is compelling. It does NOT coincide with any type of marking used in weapons of other countries, including France. It does however correspond to the early hallmark stamp of Paul Storr from c. 1792+. While this type stamp of course was used only by artisans using precious metals, it is known that in cases some did place stamps with initials regardless of metal used. In these 'times of concern' where there was a notable civilian movement of ersatz defensive measures, it is noted in one reference that workers and artisans in many trades joined in to produce needed supplies and even weaponry. It seems quite possible that Paul Storr, already working with other artisans closely aligned with the Royal House, might 'do his part' by creating a number of these hangers for 'the cause' and proudly place his well earned mark as testament to that. The paucity of examples of these munitions grade weapons is directly related to their commonality overall, and that they were 'in bulk' excellent source for much needed brass metal, and were likely scrapped in huge volume. A rather grim note on the post war use of the materials and other was recently found when I was researching the battlefields of Waterloo and other actions associated. It is well known that huge numbers of casualties were buried in huge mass graves there, however recent excavations revealed there are virtually no remains to be found archaeologically (save several noted graves of several individuals). The horrifying fact seems to have been that these huge caches of remains were dug up to be put to use, with bone ground into fertilizer which became in scale a commodity much in the way Egyptian mummies were unceremoniously used. While most weaponry found on these fields was of course taken as surplus, many more common items became of course smelting fodder, which would include of course these kinds of solid brass hilt swords. With regard to the anchor stamp, in review of the previous thread on this topic, it seems that was a known Swedish mark used generally and not specific to naval items. Attached Images

19th November 2022, 08:35 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	I would look across the Channel for this one. Britain did not really go for brass hilts after the 1790's as far as I know..... I am confident of correction if I am wrong.

20th November 2022, 09:14 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	P.S. I still have that awesome hanger of the Wooley/Deacon type with gold wash to the hilt and classic Montmorancy blade! Just whistles British naval officer! Here it is! The thread concerning this briquet and the anchor stamp- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t+anchor+stamp

20th November 2022, 12:34 PM	#6
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	I have never owned one of these and so can not add much to the discussion although I have found it confusing as to where they fit into the cutlass world. They are often offered for sale as British Cutlass or French cutlass but are not covered in the British or French literature on the official patterns. In Le Sabre D'abordage, Petard describes a few brass hilted cutlasses from the end of the 18th century but not the briquet. Of course that does not preclude them from sea service in the private sector or other associated naval units as well as land based use as already mentioned. What puzzles me is the common pattern attributed to several different countries. Were they made and sold to any buyer like Solingen blades or just copied?

20th November 2022, 02:05 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	By "Mervyn Milton, The policeman's lot, London 1985, p. 108" one can read, that "the actual briquet never made it across the English Channel. This type of weapon does not appear in the UK. Prey pieces in a new way are not known. The "Police Swords and Hangers" are complex pieces, mostly made at "Parker, Field & Sons, 233 Holborn, London". So the sword in question should come from the continent, where it was in use in lots of countries as nearly all German states, France, Switzerland, Spain, Austria and Belgium.