Austrian hussar sabre for ID

JT88 · 16th October 2021, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

This is Pottenstein in lower Austria. See: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/o..._1762_1837.xml

This Pottenstein manufacturer is regarding 19th century, this blade style was only in production until 1811 with many of the others much earlier.

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2021, 11:17 PM

I am curious about the reference to Wagner.
My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture.
Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire.
While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'.

It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass.

The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions.
What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey.

In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory).

JT88 · 16th October 2021, 11:54 PM

There is scarce information on Pottenstein, I notice a wide difference in the signatures I've found. It does seem to be a district in Austria that exported a variety of swords to Vienna.

I can post the single page of information from the book I posted, it is not all that different than what is in Wagner.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 09:55 AM

In the 18thC Austria manufactured sword blades mainly in Pottenstein and Weiz. Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765. He successfully competed with foreign imports on price and quality. On his death in 1786, his nephew Melchior Ritter von Steiner took over the arms factory which did well and became the market leader in Austria. The factory was converted into a metal and machinery goods manufacturer in 1828.

I read somewhere that gild/brass decorations on uniforms and arms in Austria-Hungary was reserved for the Crown. Silver plated hussar sabres were used by private palace and castle guards (including ceremonial duties). The Austro-Hungarian empire contained some large estates.

Below text is from Das industrielle Erbe Niederösterreichs: Geschichte, Technik, Architektur (2006) by Gerhard A Stadler.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 12:43 PM

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JT88

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

There would be no Pottenstein blades marked as such prior to 1765 as the previous factory was based in Sollenau (see text).

The gilding would be reserved for Army officers, not private estate guards. Not sure where I got that from, so unconfirmed. Hussar regiments were recognized from uniform colours and it’s possible some used gilding and others used silver (so also unconfirmed).

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 01:25 PM

Check the first page there’s one pictured there marked 1749.

Have you seen any other with silver hardware? It’s not plated, my guess from its polishing characteristics is that it is low grade silver. I haven’t been able to find another example that is not brass.

corrado26 · 17th October 2021, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765.

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 03:38 PM

Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein

Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Possible as his source says that it began with his uncle or father. What’s the earliest sample anyone has seen of a Pottenstein blade?

Are you able to tell me any more about my sample? Or where you’ve found information? The two books I listed are the only I’ve found thus far.

The Pottenstein blades seem far rarer than either the Fringian or Solingen examples. Treasures

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 05:54 PM

This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!)
Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there.
I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation.

It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary).

In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly.

In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747.
The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point.
The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same.

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) .

I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation.

16th October 2021, 11:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	I am curious about the reference to Wagner. My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture. Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire. While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'. It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass. The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions. What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey. In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory). Attached Images

17th October 2021, 09:55 AM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	In the 18thC Austria manufactured sword blades mainly in Pottenstein and Weiz. Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765. He successfully competed with foreign imports on price and quality. On his death in 1786, his nephew Melchior Ritter von Steiner took over the arms factory which did well and became the market leader in Austria. The factory was converted into a metal and machinery goods manufacturer in 1828. I read somewhere that gild/brass decorations on uniforms and arms in Austria-Hungary was reserved for the Crown. Silver plated hussar sabres were used by private palace and castle guards (including ceremonial duties). The Austro-Hungarian empire contained some large estates. Below text is from Das industrielle Erbe Niederösterreichs: Geschichte, Technik, Architektur (2006) by Gerhard A Stadler. Attached Images

17th October 2021, 01:25 PM	#7
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Check the first page there’s one pictured there marked 1749. Have you seen any other with silver hardware? It’s not plated, my guess from its polishing characteristics is that it is low grade silver. I haven’t been able to find another example that is not brass. Last edited by JT88; 17th October 2021 at 01:37 PM.

17th October 2021, 05:54 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!) Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there. I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation. It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary). In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly. In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747. The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point. The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same. My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch. I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords. Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon. Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) . I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation. Attached Images

16th October 2021, 11:54 PM	#3
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	There is scarce information on Pottenstein, I notice a wide difference in the signatures I've found. It does seem to be a district in Austria that exported a variety of swords to Vienna. I can post the single page of information from the book I posted, it is not all that different than what is in Wagner.

17th October 2021, 12:43 PM	#5
JT88 Member Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 52	Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page. Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty? Cheers

17th October 2021, 03:38 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.