Austrian hussar sabre for ID

corrado26 · 17th October 2021, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765.

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 03:38 PM

Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein

Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Possible as his source says that it began with his uncle or father. What’s the earliest sample anyone has seen of a Pottenstein blade?

Are you able to tell me any more about my sample? Or where you’ve found information? The two books I listed are the only I’ve found thus far.

The Pottenstein blades seem far rarer than either the Fringian or Solingen examples. Treasures

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 05:54 PM

This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!)
Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there.
I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation.

It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary).

In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly.

In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747.
The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point.
The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same.

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) .

I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation.

Interested Party · 17th October 2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 06:39 PM

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
His keen awareness of the needs for more efficient and standardized swords for the cavalry are well described in his biography "Scientific Soldier" by Thoumaine.

John Morgan wrote brilliant articles on these in "Classic Arms and Militaria" about 20 years ago, and I recall corresponding with him as at that time I was researching both British disc hilts as well as these notched blades.

I recall that then, I had hoped that material on LeMarchant would bring out perhaps some comments or observations on these notched blades. However, even reaching one of his descendants in England brought no notice of this curious feature.

JT88 · 17th October 2021, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
.

I'm aware of LeMarchant's background and his Austrian inspiration for the 1796's working with various British smiths.

I'm trying to find more information on Pottenstein, the resources are nil. The 1765 production start date doesn't make sense with the 1749 blade posted on the first page.

I have a feeling Steiner's uncle Melchior began sword production prior to the listed 1780 date, he was born in 1730 and was "a respected merchant and industrialist." That timeline would jive with 1749 marked Pottenstein blade.

As for the trim of silver vs brass uniforms, I can find nothing that distinguishes this sword as it seems uniquely silver vice the usual brass. Hopefully corrado knows more.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

Very well placed notes, and actually I did contact several 'Masters of Arms' to ask for their opinions on this 'notching'. They honestly had no idea what useful purpose these would serve (I think I still have the letters but its been nearly 20 years).
The note on the potential for weakening the point seems reasonable as well.
This would be the case regardless of what the intended use was.
The idea of holding a cooking pot over a fire seems unlikely as well, as the blade could be damaged by the heat as previously noted.

Victrix · 17th October 2021, 08:50 PM

Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual.

The Habsburg empire was a Â”HausmachtÂ” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und kÃ¶niglich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one.

Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported.

In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2021, 10:54 PM

Thank you Victrix!!!
As I noted, the profound complexity of all these principalities, duchies, etc. is so hard to grasp, at least for me. You have done a great job of condensing some of it for my limited comprehension!!

As you note, these irregular troops, known loosely as 'Pandurs' were known and feared for their ruthless character and indeed atrocities. Von Trenck himself was known for this type of reputation and much if not most of his life he was in trouble, even condemned to death for what amounts to war crimes etc.
He in fact was imprisoned and his units disbanded. He died in prison in 1749, and his mummified remains are in the Capuchin monastery in Brno.

Part of the intended demeanor of these forces was a fearsome 'oriental' look, scalp locks, drooping mustaches like mongols, cossacks etc. and exotic clothing along with fearsome looking weapons.
Many of these swords had dramatically profiled blades, large, dramatic curves, etc.

I still think that the notch was for perhaps that type of implication, to instill fear in accord with thier brutal reputation. In actual practicality, the notch would have been a hindrance. In most writing I have read on the serrated edges on blades, it is noted that this is the case.
The dreaded sawtooth bayonets of WWI for example:
Allied troops thought these were to worsen wounds, and were horrified at the thought of this.......any soldier found with one of this was dispatched on sight.

Psychological effect in warfare is key, and this kind of lore travels fast.
Imagine the tales of these wild forces, who deliberately 'hooked' their blades to eviscerate their victims.

It seems to fall neatly in place with the dreaded 'image' of the terrifying Pandurs. That reputation prevailed..........and into the next century, blades were adorned in hubris with the image of the Pandur. Sort of like exaggerated Bowie knives with 'Remember the Alamo'.

Victrix · 19th October 2021, 08:41 PM

Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the Pandours and the curious notch on the sword. Franziskus Freiherr von der Trenck must have been a remarkable man. I read what purports to be his auto-biography (some argue it’s a forgery) which is a highly entertaining and in some parts little sad story: Memoirs of the Life of the illustrious Francis Baron Trenck, Sometime Lord of the lBed- Chamber to her Majesty the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia. And Colonel of a Body of Pandours, and Sclavonian Hussars. Containing A compleat Account of his several Campaigns in Muscovy, Silesia, Austria, Bavaria and other Parts of the Empire, Together with Divers entertaining Anecdotes relating to his secret History. Written by himself, and done from the original German into English. London: printed for W. Owen, 1747. There are persistent rumours he had an affair with the Austrian empress which may at some time have turned sour and allowed his enemies to conspire to have him imprisoned. In addition, this report may also be of some interest: http://www.etd.ceu.edu/2015/balic_juraj.pdf.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2021, 09:34 PM

Thank you Victrix!
I just ordered a biography of von Trenck, and curious to see what it entails. This guy sounds quite self promoting and clearly was pretty ruthless, he was pretty much always in trouble but his 'bravery' led to his favor with superior officers.

Regarding the swords, that illustration you posted reflects the 'clipped point' which came into use in it seems a bit less dramatic profile on German swords of 18th c. I often wondered if these were artistic license in many of the period illustrations, but in "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerrhard Seifert (1962) in panels of blade types shows this exact tip as a 'PANDOUR POINT'.
Here we see the association which reflects the 'fearsome' demeanor of the Pandour weapons, which clearly were intended to present psychological threat to people they came in contact with.

This type effect was of course used by pirates in their maritime versions of these depredations, as well as Cossacks, Vikings, Mongols and other groups to present fearsome appearance before even any action.

There is a possibility he was imprisoned as a result of numbers of things, and may have used the 'laison' reason in a sense of hubris. It seems he was imprisoned numbers of times for his rather sociopathic behavior, so the true reason may be in accord with that issue.

17th October 2021, 05:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!) Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there. I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation. It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary). In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly. In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747. The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point. The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same. My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch. I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords. Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon. Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) . I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation. Attached Images

17th October 2021, 06:39 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	LeMarchant and British M1796 JT88, In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry. The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords. His keen awareness of the needs for more efficient and standardized swords for the cavalry are well described in his biography "Scientific Soldier" by Thoumaine. John Morgan wrote brilliant articles on these in "Classic Arms and Militaria" about 20 years ago, and I recall corresponding with him as at that time I was researching both British disc hilts as well as these notched blades. I recall that then, I had hoped that material on LeMarchant would bring out perhaps some comments or observations on these notched blades. However, even reaching one of his descendants in England brought no notice of this curious feature.

17th October 2021, 10:54 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Victrix!!! As I noted, the profound complexity of all these principalities, duchies, etc. is so hard to grasp, at least for me. You have done a great job of condensing some of it for my limited comprehension!! As you note, these irregular troops, known loosely as 'Pandurs' were known and feared for their ruthless character and indeed atrocities. Von Trenck himself was known for this type of reputation and much if not most of his life he was in trouble, even condemned to death for what amounts to war crimes etc. He in fact was imprisoned and his units disbanded. He died in prison in 1749, and his mummified remains are in the Capuchin monastery in Brno. Part of the intended demeanor of these forces was a fearsome 'oriental' look, scalp locks, drooping mustaches like mongols, cossacks etc. and exotic clothing along with fearsome looking weapons. Many of these swords had dramatically profiled blades, large, dramatic curves, etc. I still think that the notch was for perhaps that type of implication, to instill fear in accord with thier brutal reputation. In actual practicality, the notch would have been a hindrance. In most writing I have read on the serrated edges on blades, it is noted that this is the case. The dreaded sawtooth bayonets of WWI for example: Allied troops thought these were to worsen wounds, and were horrified at the thought of this.......any soldier found with one of this was dispatched on sight. Psychological effect in warfare is key, and this kind of lore travels fast. Imagine the tales of these wild forces, who deliberately 'hooked' their blades to eviscerate their victims. It seems to fall neatly in place with the dreaded 'image' of the terrifying Pandurs. That reputation prevailed..........and into the next century, blades were adorned in hubris with the image of the Pandur. Sort of like exaggerated Bowie knives with 'Remember the Alamo'. Attached Images

19th October 2021, 08:41 PM	#11
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the Pandours and the curious notch on the sword. Franziskus Freiherr von der Trenck must have been a remarkable man. I read what purports to be his auto-biography (some argue it’s a forgery) which is a highly entertaining and in some parts little sad story: Memoirs of the Life of the illustrious Francis Baron Trenck, Sometime Lord of the lBed- Chamber to her Majesty the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia. And Colonel of a Body of Pandours, and Sclavonian Hussars. Containing A compleat Account of his several Campaigns in Muscovy, Silesia, Austria, Bavaria and other Parts of the Empire, Together with Divers entertaining Anecdotes relating to his secret History. Written by himself, and done from the original German into English. London: printed for W. Owen, 1747. There are persistent rumours he had an affair with the Austrian empress which may at some time have turned sour and allowed his enemies to conspire to have him imprisoned. In addition, this report may also be of some interest: http://www.etd.ceu.edu/2015/balic_juraj.pdf. Attached Images

17th October 2021, 03:38 PM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

17th October 2021, 08:50 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual. The Habsburg empire was a Â”HausmachtÂ” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und kÃ¶niglich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one. Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported. In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.

19th October 2021, 09:34 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Victrix! I just ordered a biography of von Trenck, and curious to see what it entails. This guy sounds quite self promoting and clearly was pretty ruthless, he was pretty much always in trouble but his 'bravery' led to his favor with superior officers. Regarding the swords, that illustration you posted reflects the 'clipped point' which came into use in it seems a bit less dramatic profile on German swords of 18th c. I often wondered if these were artistic license in many of the period illustrations, but in "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerrhard Seifert (1962) in panels of blade types shows this exact tip as a 'PANDOUR POINT'. Here we see the association which reflects the 'fearsome' demeanor of the Pandour weapons, which clearly were intended to present psychological threat to people they came in contact with. This type effect was of course used by pirates in their maritime versions of these depredations, as well as Cossacks, Vikings, Mongols and other groups to present fearsome appearance before even any action. There is a possibility he was imprisoned as a result of numbers of things, and may have used the 'laison' reason in a sense of hubris. It seems he was imprisoned numbers of times for his rather sociopathic behavior, so the true reason may be in accord with that issue.