blade mystery

[Jim McDougall]

I really dont think these type of heavy curved blades were common in England in the 16th century, however there were examples of North European 'dusagge' (the 'Sinclair saber' type) which came back from Europe during campaigns with English participants. These were in essence forerunners of the Scottish basket hilt.
Obviously by the early 17th century hangers with such blades were being exported by Solingen into England and the famed Hounslow shops.

The idea of these magic numbers being just that is reprehensible to most students and collectors of arms as not empirically feasible, so not valid. This I have encountered many times in discussing such theories with many of them, but there are numbers of authors who have recognized that there is a certain plausibility to them.

As I have mentioned, why would a 'date' of establishment exist relating to a 'firm' or 'maker' on an unidentified blade? Further, in the images from Stuart's book, the number 1414 is used. This number and its other palindrome 1441 are the most commonly found on blades, and I listed earlier certain makers who favored and used other combinations........none of which had ANYTHING to do with their year of beginnings.

On the dog head hilt is ANNO 1414 on a sword from 1650s.............so WHO was the firm or maker established in 1414? However, we know this is a 'magic' number, and these numbers were used in the occult and talismanic charms used in Passau, and thereby in Solingen.

Here is the clincher, look at the picture of the sword (p.175) with the remarkably similar number to yours, ANNO 1551 ! off by 2 !!
Again, ANNO.

ANNO is of course, in the year of.....but among other meanings associated, 'God is gracious'., as in ANNO DOMINI, in the year of our Lord.
Talismanic augmentation to a magic (talismanic) invocation? I think so.
The occult was not always sinister, but religious in nature, as in the teachings of John Dee, late 16th c. occultist, astrologer, teacher who used a kind of alphabetic script which was regarded as 'Angelic'. Some of the glyphs in these are seen in markings on blades, and were perhaps talismanic much in the way of the running wolf, cross and orb etc.


Look at the fullering and ANNO 1553 on your example in pic 1.
Next (p.175, Mowbray) is a sword with similar fullers, in similar location is the 'sickle' mark and ANNO 1551
Next (p.172, the dog head sword, with markings and ANNO 1414, (an impossibly early date with no commemorative value viable)
Next: the dot and trellis designs in motif on this and numbers of these hangers 1620s-60s.
Seen augmenting the latten running wolf......it suggests perhaps either a Solingen maker acting on behalf of an English cutler/smith or that possibly a Hounslow maker may have added a running wolf with the known dot and trellis design. I would note here that these designs are known in other 'magic' connotations in degree as well.

[urbanspaceman]

Jim, that first sword is almost identical to mine. In fact, I would not be surprised if my grip binding was not a replacement for the original antler.

Adding it all up, I now think that the 1553 is probably not commemorating the Grey/Dudley tragedy but is talismanic as you suggest.

It would certainly make more sense than trying to consider the blade as early 1500s.

Maybe there was a connection to the date 1553 and its tragedy and maybe not: after all, it was a hundred years later and everything had changed a great deal on the political front diminishing the affair.

Remarkable research Jim, well-done and many thanks.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Keith!
I found more on the curious mark on the hanger with the wolf and dot and trellis augment in Wallace Collection (Sir James Mann, 1962), p.244.
Apparently this mark is associated with the well known Stantler family of Munich who were established 1455-1647.

Obviously the family had numerous types of marks, and were known to have used spurious markings of various makers, particularly Spanish.

In this case, the glyph with curved upper cross arm as seen on this hanger in cartouche with similar mark appears top have been incorrectly attributed to VERDUN c.1480 by an author named Viollet du Lac ("Armourers Marks", Dudley S. Hawtrey Gyngell, 1959, p.25). The error was then perpetuated (as often the case) bv Z. Lenkiewicz in his "1000 Marks of European Blademakers" (1991).

Mann notes this mistaken attribution (op.cit.p.244) by Viollet du Lac and suggests that the error may owe to the similarity of the device to the double armed 'Cross of Lorraine".

Christoph Stantler II of Munich worked 1607-1636, so quite likely this blade is from this period.

Attached the original entry from Gyngell (note the ? mark)
The entry from Sir James Mann, (1962, p.244. The author in question, du Lac apparently wrote in 1868.

While this detail pertains to a hanger which went to unknown buyer, this information is for the benefit of future research with reference to the markings .

[urbanspaceman]

Benjamin Stone was the biggest operator at Hounslow; he was certainly the most notorious. His factories and mill feature prominently on the map of Hounslow at the time.
Most of the Germans there were supplying him or working for him; IENKES is a typical example.
Stone did not forge: he had a grinding mill and workshops for scabbards, belts and hilts.
Stone was supplying the Tower until civil war broke out when he de-camped, joined the King at Oxford and set up shop in Gloucester Hall and at Wolvercote. He never returned to Hounslow.
It is possible these German blades with that distinctive wolf were imported by Stone; but there were many others importing blades during the lifetime of Hounslow sword production
as it was accepted by the government that their enormous demands required importing from Germany and paying dearly; the only alternative was using English made blades which was not popular; I'm about to start a new thread relating to this issue.

[mariusgmioc]

Very interesting information!

Thank you guys!