blade mystery

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall; Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.[/QUOTE]

Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

Thank you so much, and for the previous response.....the answer is, I sleep little when there is a quest

. Most here do not realize the intensity and duration of research that obsesses to find answers. While many find little interest in the minutiae of arms markings etc. , this is how we discover the mysteries they hold.
Far more exciting than just placing a weapon on the wall with a laconic caption

While you did not acquire that sword, the markings are distinct.
That shield at the forte is one very close to an attribution known in Verdun (France) end of 15th c. which is far too early for this blade. I would suspect this to be later used by Passau or Swiss armourers laterin 16th to early 17thc.
Most of these 'armed' devices are regarded as unidentified, but are indeed recorded in collected arms records.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 06:14 PM

Yet again we progress, thank-you Jim.

The shield is like a one on a swept hilt rapier I have. You attributed it to a City Guard which is almost certainly correct as far as the rapier is concerned. However, I don't understand what it is doing on that Hounslow Hunting Hangar. Perhaps you are correct and it was simply diverted to England. Were those short curved blades found in military circles during the early 1600s or late 1500s; or even early 1500s?

I've searched as best I can for the origin of my rapier marking but to no avail . One reference I found looked similar. (see attached)

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 08:28 PM

In looking more for this 'cross' design, I have found no evidence of this in the usual (and unusual) references other than crossed items used in proof marks mostly ordnance context with firearms.

However, I finally went to "British Military Sword 1600-60" Stuart Mowbray, 2013, and here are the most breathtaking photos and detailed captions of most of the actual swords we discuss. Every page is a gold mine of data, Stuart is one of the brilliant researchers and arms scholars of our time. He learned well from his father Andrew Mowbray, author of "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", and literally grew up immersed in weapons.

Hangers with virtually the exact fuller pattern from Solingen are seen, on p.175 is one but in the space where the wolf would be as on yours, there is the 'sickle mark' and surmounted by ANNO 1551. Here he notes these numbers and the word Anno are often palindromes, and that the numbers are (as I contend) magical . He disagrees and suggests that they are likely numbers of the year of establishment of the firm of the maker of the blade.

He has disagreed with me before on the presence of magic sigils and glyphs on blades insisting they are makers marks, but I must contend that magic devices are profoundly present on blades. It would seem odd that the year of maker founding would be represented when the blade is void of any mark denoting what maker that is.

On p.167, the number 1551 occurs again over a notably deviated 'cross and orb', a device used in the collective manner of the running wolf and 'sickle marks'. ..in this case the ANNO does not appear.

REGARDING THE CROSS AND DOTS:
on p.168 and on p.162, the decorative motif used on numbers of these hilts of Hounslow style is the cross hatch style with dots.....called dot and trellis.
This seems to have been popular in the early to mid 17th c. in motif, and would seem to have been added above the running wolf in that styled convention.

On that shield, while the device or sigil is 'similar' the one on the hanger blade noted is decidely different with the configuration of the arms.
As noted though, these designs seem to have been popular and were altered and configured in variation much as the cross bars on the cross and orbs and the anchors used along with inscriptions.
Most markings have been recorded from collected weapons over years by curators and collectors, and our references are compendiums of those rather than official records of regulating agencies.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 09:24 PM

I have to agree with you Jim and disagree with Stuart: you will recall that my initial question at the beginning of this thread was whether such a blade as mine was produced in Solingen in the early 1500s. Add to that, as you declare, why no maker's name, and even more to the point, why are there a variety of numbers found associated with a similar wolf/orb/sickle etc.

I fail to comprehend however what the significance of ANNO might be unless it is either a commemorative date or a production date; the former obviously appearing to me as the most likely.

When I first acquired my hanger, and discovered the significance of the year 1553, I made the mistake of associating the Earl of Northumberland with Syon House next to the Hounslow mills - which was the home of the Percys. In fact, the Earl of Northumberland in 1553 was a Dudley not a Percy. An easy mistake to make if you only have a superficial knowledge of the aristocracy back then... as did I. Had it been a Percy, then commissioning a hanger from your local swordsmith and commemorating such a significant date was highly likely. I asked the present Duke of Northumberland (a Percy) if there was any record of a sword being commissioned and was disabused of the connection.
All of this aside, I come back to my original question: could this blade have existed in England in 1553?

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 10:21 PM

I really dont think these type of heavy curved blades were common in England in the 16th century, however there were examples of North European 'dusagge' (the 'Sinclair saber' type) which came back from Europe during campaigns with English participants. These were in essence forerunners of the Scottish basket hilt.
Obviously by the early 17th century hangers with such blades were being exported by Solingen into England and the famed Hounslow shops.

The idea of these magic numbers being just that is reprehensible to most students and collectors of arms as not empirically feasible, so not valid. This I have encountered many times in discussing such theories with many of them, but there are numbers of authors who have recognized that there is a certain plausibility to them.

As I have mentioned, why would a 'date' of establishment exist relating to a 'firm' or 'maker' on an unidentified blade? Further, in the images from Stuart's book, the number 1414 is used. This number and its other palindrome 1441 are the most commonly found on blades, and I listed earlier certain makers who favored and used other combinations........none of which had ANYTHING to do with their year of beginnings.

On the dog head hilt is ANNO 1414 on a sword from 1650s.............so WHO was the firm or maker established in 1414? However, we know this is a 'magic' number, and these numbers were used in the occult and talismanic charms used in Passau, and thereby in Solingen.

Here is the clincher, look at the picture of the sword (p.175) with the remarkably similar number to yours, ANNO 1551 ! off by 2 !!
Again, ANNO.

ANNO is of course, in the year of.....but among other meanings associated, 'God is gracious'., as in ANNO DOMINI, in the year of our Lord.
Talismanic augmentation to a magic (talismanic) invocation? I think so.
The occult was not always sinister, but religious in nature, as in the teachings of John Dee, late 16th c. occultist, astrologer, teacher who used a kind of alphabetic script which was regarded as 'Angelic'. Some of the glyphs in these are seen in markings on blades, and were perhaps talismanic much in the way of the running wolf, cross and orb etc.

Look at the fullering and ANNO 1553 on your example in pic 1.
Next (p.175, Mowbray) is a sword with similar fullers, in similar location is the 'sickle' mark and ANNO 1551
Next (p.172, the dog head sword, with markings and ANNO 1414, (an impossibly early date with no commemorative value viable)
Next: the dot and trellis designs in motif on this and numbers of these hangers 1620s-60s.
Seen augmenting the latten running wolf......it suggests perhaps either a Solingen maker acting on behalf of an English cutler/smith or that possibly a Hounslow maker may have added a running wolf with the known dot and trellis design. I would note here that these designs are known in other 'magic' connotations in degree as well.

urbanspaceman · 14th August 2021, 12:04 AM

Jim, that first sword is almost identical to mine. In fact, I would not be surprised if my grip binding was not a replacement for the original antler.

Adding it all up, I now think that the 1553 is probably not commemorating the Grey/Dudley tragedy but is talismanic as you suggest.

It would certainly make more sense than trying to consider the blade as early 1500s.

Maybe there was a connection to the date 1553 and its tragedy and maybe not: after all, it was a hundred years later and everything had changed a great deal on the political front diminishing the affair.

Remarkable research Jim, well-done and many thanks.

13th August 2021, 02:40 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	2 swords [QUOTE=Jim McDougall; Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.[/QUOTE] Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

13th August 2021, 06:14 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Shields Yet again we progress, thank-you Jim. The shield is like a one on a swept hilt rapier I have. You attributed it to a City Guard which is almost certainly correct as far as the rapier is concerned. However, I don't understand what it is doing on that Hounslow Hunting Hangar. Perhaps you are correct and it was simply diverted to England. Were those short curved blades found in military circles during the early 1600s or late 1500s; or even early 1500s? I've searched as best I can for the origin of my rapier marking but to no avail . One reference I found looked similar. (see attached) Attached Images

13th August 2021, 09:24 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	blade marks cont' I have to agree with you Jim and disagree with Stuart: you will recall that my initial question at the beginning of this thread was whether such a blade as mine was produced in Solingen in the early 1500s. Add to that, as you declare, why no maker's name, and even more to the point, why are there a variety of numbers found associated with a similar wolf/orb/sickle etc. I fail to comprehend however what the significance of ANNO might be unless it is either a commemorative date or a production date; the former obviously appearing to me as the most likely. When I first acquired my hanger, and discovered the significance of the year 1553, I made the mistake of associating the Earl of Northumberland with Syon House next to the Hounslow mills - which was the home of the Percys. In fact, the Earl of Northumberland in 1553 was a Dudley not a Percy. An easy mistake to make if you only have a superficial knowledge of the aristocracy back then... as did I. Had it been a Percy, then commissioning a hanger from your local swordsmith and commemorating such a significant date was highly likely. I asked the present Duke of Northumberland (a Percy) if there was any record of a sword being commissioned and was disabused of the connection. All of this aside, I come back to my original question: could this blade have existed in England in 1553?

13th August 2021, 10:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I really dont think these type of heavy curved blades were common in England in the 16th century, however there were examples of North European 'dusagge' (the 'Sinclair saber' type) which came back from Europe during campaigns with English participants. These were in essence forerunners of the Scottish basket hilt. Obviously by the early 17th century hangers with such blades were being exported by Solingen into England and the famed Hounslow shops. The idea of these magic numbers being just that is reprehensible to most students and collectors of arms as not empirically feasible, so not valid. This I have encountered many times in discussing such theories with many of them, but there are numbers of authors who have recognized that there is a certain plausibility to them. As I have mentioned, why would a 'date' of establishment exist relating to a 'firm' or 'maker' on an unidentified blade? Further, in the images from Stuart's book, the number 1414 is used. This number and its other palindrome 1441 are the most commonly found on blades, and I listed earlier certain makers who favored and used other combinations........none of which had ANYTHING to do with their year of beginnings. On the dog head hilt is ANNO 1414 on a sword from 1650s.............so WHO was the firm or maker established in 1414? However, we know this is a 'magic' number, and these numbers were used in the occult and talismanic charms used in Passau, and thereby in Solingen. Here is the clincher, look at the picture of the sword (p.175) with the remarkably similar number to yours, ANNO 1551 ! off by 2 !! Again, ANNO. ANNO is of course, in the year of.....but among other meanings associated, 'God is gracious'., as in ANNO DOMINI, in the year of our Lord. Talismanic augmentation to a magic (talismanic) invocation? I think so. The occult was not always sinister, but religious in nature, as in the teachings of John Dee, late 16th c. occultist, astrologer, teacher who used a kind of alphabetic script which was regarded as 'Angelic'. Some of the glyphs in these are seen in markings on blades, and were perhaps talismanic much in the way of the running wolf, cross and orb etc. Look at the fullering and ANNO 1553 on your example in pic 1. Next (p.175, Mowbray) is a sword with similar fullers, in similar location is the 'sickle' mark and ANNO 1551 Next (p.172, the dog head sword, with markings and ANNO 1414, (an impossibly early date with no commemorative value viable) Next: the dot and trellis designs in motif on this and numbers of these hangers 1620s-60s. Seen augmenting the latten running wolf......it suggests perhaps either a Solingen maker acting on behalf of an English cutler/smith or that possibly a Hounslow maker may have added a running wolf with the known dot and trellis design. I would note here that these designs are known in other 'magic' connotations in degree as well. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th August 2021 at 10:32 PM.

14th August 2021, 12:04 AM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	remarkable about turn Jim, that first sword is almost identical to mine. In fact, I would not be surprised if my grip binding was not a replacement for the original antler. Adding it all up, I now think that the 1553 is probably not commemorating the Grey/Dudley tragedy but is talismanic as you suggest. It would certainly make more sense than trying to consider the blade as early 1500s. Maybe there was a connection to the date 1553 and its tragedy and maybe not: after all, it was a hundred years later and everything had changed a great deal on the political front diminishing the affair. Remarkable research Jim, well-done and many thanks.

13th August 2021, 08:28 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	In looking more for this 'cross' design, I have found no evidence of this in the usual (and unusual) references other than crossed items used in proof marks mostly ordnance context with firearms. However, I finally went to "British Military Sword 1600-60" Stuart Mowbray, 2013, and here are the most breathtaking photos and detailed captions of most of the actual swords we discuss. Every page is a gold mine of data, Stuart is one of the brilliant researchers and arms scholars of our time. He learned well from his father Andrew Mowbray, author of "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", and literally grew up immersed in weapons. Hangers with virtually the exact fuller pattern from Solingen are seen, on p.175 is one but in the space where the wolf would be as on yours, there is the 'sickle mark' and surmounted by ANNO 1551. Here he notes these numbers and the word Anno are often palindromes, and that the numbers are (as I contend) magical . He disagrees and suggests that they are likely numbers of the year of establishment of the firm of the maker of the blade. He has disagreed with me before on the presence of magic sigils and glyphs on blades insisting they are makers marks, but I must contend that magic devices are profoundly present on blades. It would seem odd that the year of maker founding would be represented when the blade is void of any mark denoting what maker that is. On p.167, the number 1551 occurs again over a notably deviated 'cross and orb', a device used in the collective manner of the running wolf and 'sickle marks'. ..in this case the ANNO does not appear. REGARDING THE CROSS AND DOTS: on p.168 and on p.162, the decorative motif used on numbers of these hilts of Hounslow style is the cross hatch style with dots.....called dot and trellis. This seems to have been popular in the early to mid 17th c. in motif, and would seem to have been added above the running wolf in that styled convention. On that shield, while the device or sigil is 'similar' the one on the hanger blade noted is decidely different with the configuration of the arms. As noted though, these designs seem to have been popular and were altered and configured in variation much as the cross bars on the cross and orbs and the anchors used along with inscriptions. Most markings have been recorded from collected weapons over years by curators and collectors, and our references are compendiums of those rather than official records of regulating agencies.