blade mystery

urbanspaceman · 12th August 2021, 10:01 PM

Sorry, should have included the image of the shield; here it is:

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 07:11 AM

I have been trying to locate more on these Hounslow blades.
With the hanger in the OP, as compelling as the case for 1553 being a commemorative date is, especially having ANNO with it, the following moves toward the use of magic numbers.
These are four numbers, typically used along with the running wolf, in most cases with two of the numbers on either side of the wolf.

The running wolf itself was applied to blades which were made in Solingen to be hilted in Passau, a center for Landsknechts, mercenary forces. These were basically talismanic imbuements, and in many cases numbers with magic properties were combined with them.

In "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E. Wagner, Prague, 1967, material from "Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441)and Related Numerical Signs ", Walter Rose, (Zeitschrifte fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde", Vol.14, p.13) :

"...blades forged by Johannes Wundes used 1479; Johannes Kueller used 1495; Meves Berns 1506; Johann Hartcop 1506; Mathias Wundes 1515;and Peter Munich 1436".

Apparently according to Wagner (op.cit. p.76-77) Solingen makers making blades for Passau intended for Archprince Leopold began c. 1611, and through the Thirty Years War, with the running wolf applied as a kind of 'brand'. From there it gained a quality type character.

When the shops with German makers opened in Hounslow, blades with many having the latten running wolf were sent there, and many were inscribed with makers names and ME FECIT HOUNSLOW etc.

In "Catalog of the Sword Collection at York Castle Museum" (P.R.Newman, 1985) numbers of these blades are found in many of the swords.

Most important:
p.48 a dog head sword with English hilt c. 1640-50 has a German blade (no wolf) BUT THE MARKING ANNO 1414.
The numbers 1414 and 1441 are likely the most common magic numbers found on Solingen and some other European blades as they are based on the number 7.
Here the ANNO is found with a 'magic' number , not a date.

Another sword (p.52) has a maker, IOHAN ESALESON ANNO 1641.

Another p.51 , running wolf, number 1561, the hilt c. 1650
CA826, German blade , wolf, 1517
p.50: wolf, German blade 1670
p.29: wolf, 1399, hilt c. 1620-50
p.33: wolf, 1523, c. 1620
p.47: wolf, 1541 c. 1650
p.39 : wolf, 1656

While not helpful for the commemorative date theory on this great hanger, it is an example with a remarkable blade, and it does appear these blades were coming into England from Solingen from early 17th c. years. The mystery numbers on these blades seem largely to be of the 'magical variety, but clearly some represent authentic dates (1650,1670).

Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 02:37 PM

Thanks again Jim... when do you sleep???

Your information regarding numbers is equally compelling and makes me question my indication of the historical event of 1553.

This business of ANNO alongside numbers is very curious; do you know why it was used?

Incidentally, I found a straight broadsword blade with multiple fullers and a Hounslow stamp on a sword in the York Museum (CA756).

I question a 1500s manufacture date with re-hilting but I don't know where to go to ascertain if such a blade was exported by Solingen back then; or even made back then.

Your referral to the Stortas makes me wonder though. Multi-fullered Schiavonas were common I know.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 02:40 PM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall; Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.[/QUOTE]

Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

Thank you so much, and for the previous response.....the answer is, I sleep little when there is a quest

. Most here do not realize the intensity and duration of research that obsesses to find answers. While many find little interest in the minutiae of arms markings etc. , this is how we discover the mysteries they hold.
Far more exciting than just placing a weapon on the wall with a laconic caption

While you did not acquire that sword, the markings are distinct.
That shield at the forte is one very close to an attribution known in Verdun (France) end of 15th c. which is far too early for this blade. I would suspect this to be later used by Passau or Swiss armourers laterin 16th to early 17thc.
Most of these 'armed' devices are regarded as unidentified, but are indeed recorded in collected arms records.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 06:14 PM

Yet again we progress, thank-you Jim.

The shield is like a one on a swept hilt rapier I have. You attributed it to a City Guard which is almost certainly correct as far as the rapier is concerned. However, I don't understand what it is doing on that Hounslow Hunting Hangar. Perhaps you are correct and it was simply diverted to England. Were those short curved blades found in military circles during the early 1600s or late 1500s; or even early 1500s?

I've searched as best I can for the origin of my rapier marking but to no avail . One reference I found looked similar. (see attached)

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2021, 08:28 PM

In looking more for this 'cross' design, I have found no evidence of this in the usual (and unusual) references other than crossed items used in proof marks mostly ordnance context with firearms.

However, I finally went to "British Military Sword 1600-60" Stuart Mowbray, 2013, and here are the most breathtaking photos and detailed captions of most of the actual swords we discuss. Every page is a gold mine of data, Stuart is one of the brilliant researchers and arms scholars of our time. He learned well from his father Andrew Mowbray, author of "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", and literally grew up immersed in weapons.

Hangers with virtually the exact fuller pattern from Solingen are seen, on p.175 is one but in the space where the wolf would be as on yours, there is the 'sickle mark' and surmounted by ANNO 1551. Here he notes these numbers and the word Anno are often palindromes, and that the numbers are (as I contend) magical . He disagrees and suggests that they are likely numbers of the year of establishment of the firm of the maker of the blade.

He has disagreed with me before on the presence of magic sigils and glyphs on blades insisting they are makers marks, but I must contend that magic devices are profoundly present on blades. It would seem odd that the year of maker founding would be represented when the blade is void of any mark denoting what maker that is.

On p.167, the number 1551 occurs again over a notably deviated 'cross and orb', a device used in the collective manner of the running wolf and 'sickle marks'. ..in this case the ANNO does not appear.

REGARDING THE CROSS AND DOTS:
on p.168 and on p.162, the decorative motif used on numbers of these hilts of Hounslow style is the cross hatch style with dots.....called dot and trellis.
This seems to have been popular in the early to mid 17th c. in motif, and would seem to have been added above the running wolf in that styled convention.

On that shield, while the device or sigil is 'similar' the one on the hanger blade noted is decidely different with the configuration of the arms.
As noted though, these designs seem to have been popular and were altered and configured in variation much as the cross bars on the cross and orbs and the anchors used along with inscriptions.
Most markings have been recorded from collected weapons over years by curators and collectors, and our references are compendiums of those rather than official records of regulating agencies.

urbanspaceman · 13th August 2021, 09:24 PM

I have to agree with you Jim and disagree with Stuart: you will recall that my initial question at the beginning of this thread was whether such a blade as mine was produced in Solingen in the early 1500s. Add to that, as you declare, why no maker's name, and even more to the point, why are there a variety of numbers found associated with a similar wolf/orb/sickle etc.

I fail to comprehend however what the significance of ANNO might be unless it is either a commemorative date or a production date; the former obviously appearing to me as the most likely.

When I first acquired my hanger, and discovered the significance of the year 1553, I made the mistake of associating the Earl of Northumberland with Syon House next to the Hounslow mills - which was the home of the Percys. In fact, the Earl of Northumberland in 1553 was a Dudley not a Percy. An easy mistake to make if you only have a superficial knowledge of the aristocracy back then... as did I. Had it been a Percy, then commissioning a hanger from your local swordsmith and commemorating such a significant date was highly likely. I asked the present Duke of Northumberland (a Percy) if there was any record of a sword being commissioned and was disabused of the connection.
All of this aside, I come back to my original question: could this blade have existed in England in 1553?

12th August 2021, 10:01 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	ps Sorry, should have included the image of the shield; here it is: Attached Images

13th August 2021, 07:11 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	MAGIC NUMBERS I have been trying to locate more on these Hounslow blades. With the hanger in the OP, as compelling as the case for 1553 being a commemorative date is, especially having ANNO with it, the following moves toward the use of magic numbers. These are four numbers, typically used along with the running wolf, in most cases with two of the numbers on either side of the wolf. The running wolf itself was applied to blades which were made in Solingen to be hilted in Passau, a center for Landsknechts, mercenary forces. These were basically talismanic imbuements, and in many cases numbers with magic properties were combined with them. In "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E. Wagner, Prague, 1967, material from "Die Klingenmarke 1414(1441)and Related Numerical Signs ", Walter Rose, (Zeitschrifte fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde", Vol.14, p.13) : "...blades forged by Johannes Wundes used 1479; Johannes Kueller used 1495; Meves Berns 1506; Johann Hartcop 1506; Mathias Wundes 1515;and Peter Munich 1436". Apparently according to Wagner (op.cit. p.76-77) Solingen makers making blades for Passau intended for Archprince Leopold began c. 1611, and through the Thirty Years War, with the running wolf applied as a kind of 'brand'. From there it gained a quality type character. When the shops with German makers opened in Hounslow, blades with many having the latten running wolf were sent there, and many were inscribed with makers names and ME FECIT HOUNSLOW etc. In "Catalog of the Sword Collection at York Castle Museum" (P.R.Newman, 1985) numbers of these blades are found in many of the swords. Most important: p.48 a dog head sword with English hilt c. 1640-50 has a German blade (no wolf) BUT THE MARKING ANNO 1414. The numbers 1414 and 1441 are likely the most common magic numbers found on Solingen and some other European blades as they are based on the number 7. Here the ANNO is found with a 'magic' number , not a date. Another sword (p.52) has a maker, IOHAN ESALESON ANNO 1641. Another p.51 , running wolf, number 1561, the hilt c. 1650 CA826, German blade , wolf, 1517 p.50: wolf, German blade 1670 p.29: wolf, 1399, hilt c. 1620-50 p.33: wolf, 1523, c. 1620 p.47: wolf, 1541 c. 1650 p.39 : wolf, 1656 While not helpful for the commemorative date theory on this great hanger, it is an example with a remarkable blade, and it does appear these blades were coming into England from Solingen from early 17th c. years. The mystery numbers on these blades seem largely to be of the 'magical variety, but clearly some represent authentic dates (1650,1670). Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.

13th August 2021, 02:37 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Dates Thanks again Jim... when do you sleep??? Your information regarding numbers is equally compelling and makes me question my indication of the historical event of 1553. This business of ANNO alongside numbers is very curious; do you know why it was used? Incidentally, I found a straight broadsword blade with multiple fullers and a Hounslow stamp on a sword in the York Museum (CA756). I question a 1500s manufacture date with re-hilting but I don't know where to go to ascertain if such a blade was exported by Solingen back then; or even made back then. Your referral to the Stortas makes me wonder though. Multi-fullered Schiavonas were common I know.

13th August 2021, 02:40 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	2 swords [QUOTE=Jim McDougall; Still working on the wolf with the cross over it. It seems like I have seen it before but cannot locate. The shield at the forte only compares with a mark from Verdun (France) but that is too early for this blade (Gyngell and Lenciewicz have it c. 1480). It is similar to Passau types of early 17th but those are unidentified users.[/QUOTE] Don't let my grasshopper attention confuse: the latten with the crosses and accompanying shield are from the sword I didn't acquire.

13th August 2021, 06:14 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	Shields Yet again we progress, thank-you Jim. The shield is like a one on a swept hilt rapier I have. You attributed it to a City Guard which is almost certainly correct as far as the rapier is concerned. However, I don't understand what it is doing on that Hounslow Hunting Hangar. Perhaps you are correct and it was simply diverted to England. Were those short curved blades found in military circles during the early 1600s or late 1500s; or even early 1500s? I've searched as best I can for the origin of my rapier marking but to no avail . One reference I found looked similar. (see attached) Attached Images

13th August 2021, 08:28 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	In looking more for this 'cross' design, I have found no evidence of this in the usual (and unusual) references other than crossed items used in proof marks mostly ordnance context with firearms. However, I finally went to "British Military Sword 1600-60" Stuart Mowbray, 2013, and here are the most breathtaking photos and detailed captions of most of the actual swords we discuss. Every page is a gold mine of data, Stuart is one of the brilliant researchers and arms scholars of our time. He learned well from his father Andrew Mowbray, author of "The American Eagle Pommel Sword", and literally grew up immersed in weapons. Hangers with virtually the exact fuller pattern from Solingen are seen, on p.175 is one but in the space where the wolf would be as on yours, there is the 'sickle mark' and surmounted by ANNO 1551. Here he notes these numbers and the word Anno are often palindromes, and that the numbers are (as I contend) magical . He disagrees and suggests that they are likely numbers of the year of establishment of the firm of the maker of the blade. He has disagreed with me before on the presence of magic sigils and glyphs on blades insisting they are makers marks, but I must contend that magic devices are profoundly present on blades. It would seem odd that the year of maker founding would be represented when the blade is void of any mark denoting what maker that is. On p.167, the number 1551 occurs again over a notably deviated 'cross and orb', a device used in the collective manner of the running wolf and 'sickle marks'. ..in this case the ANNO does not appear. REGARDING THE CROSS AND DOTS: on p.168 and on p.162, the decorative motif used on numbers of these hilts of Hounslow style is the cross hatch style with dots.....called dot and trellis. This seems to have been popular in the early to mid 17th c. in motif, and would seem to have been added above the running wolf in that styled convention. On that shield, while the device or sigil is 'similar' the one on the hanger blade noted is decidely different with the configuration of the arms. As noted though, these designs seem to have been popular and were altered and configured in variation much as the cross bars on the cross and orbs and the anchors used along with inscriptions. Most markings have been recorded from collected weapons over years by curators and collectors, and our references are compendiums of those rather than official records of regulating agencies.

13th August 2021, 09:24 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 577	blade marks cont' I have to agree with you Jim and disagree with Stuart: you will recall that my initial question at the beginning of this thread was whether such a blade as mine was produced in Solingen in the early 1500s. Add to that, as you declare, why no maker's name, and even more to the point, why are there a variety of numbers found associated with a similar wolf/orb/sickle etc. I fail to comprehend however what the significance of ANNO might be unless it is either a commemorative date or a production date; the former obviously appearing to me as the most likely. When I first acquired my hanger, and discovered the significance of the year 1553, I made the mistake of associating the Earl of Northumberland with Syon House next to the Hounslow mills - which was the home of the Percys. In fact, the Earl of Northumberland in 1553 was a Dudley not a Percy. An easy mistake to make if you only have a superficial knowledge of the aristocracy back then... as did I. Had it been a Percy, then commissioning a hanger from your local swordsmith and commemorating such a significant date was highly likely. I asked the present Duke of Northumberland (a Percy) if there was any record of a sword being commissioned and was disabused of the connection. All of this aside, I come back to my original question: could this blade have existed in England in 1553?