Sword fragment - opinions

AHorsa · 18th July 2016, 09:58 PM

thanks for the replies, stekemest and helleri. will have some investigation in this direction.
here are some pics of the end of the pommel. the little pin / rivet is missing, probably broken off or rusted away.

best regards
andreas

stekemest · 19th July 2016, 12:06 PM

The new pictures convince me it is an original. Congratulations.

AHorsa · 22nd December 2022, 09:03 PM

Dear all,

after this sword fragment did find its way back to me yesterday, I´d love to find out more about its age and geographic background. Any opinions warmly appreciated.

To complete the dimensions: The blade is 43mm wide.

Kind regards
Andreas

Reventlov · 23rd December 2022, 12:55 PM

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

AHorsa · 23rd December 2022, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reventlov

Hi Andreas,

The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250.

While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda.

54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2.
L= 33.4*; BL= 15.7*; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2
XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106.

Best regards,
Mark

Woooooow Mark!! You are kiddding me. How cool is that! Thank you very much mate!

@Will: Yes, it is definetely broken and not rusted away. I guess battle damaged. I was planning to put it on an acryl stand, but now thinking about putting it into a wooden frame on the wall.

Best regards
Andreas

Lee · 23rd December 2022, 04:58 PM

Nothing is better than having a publicly published picture from before the current plague of forgeries as provenance and to also know from where the example originated. Good work Reventlov! The irregular broken end is, as has been said before above, absolutely characteristic of a fracture from use.

Below is an image of another broken sword of similar age and form showing a similar fracture break.

Will M · 23rd December 2022, 07:01 PM

A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron.
It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.

18th July 2016, 09:58 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	thanks for the replies, stekemest and helleri. will have some investigation in this direction. here are some pics of the end of the pommel. the little pin / rivet is missing, probably broken off or rusted away. best regards andreas Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 19th July 2016 at 08:03 AM.

22nd December 2022, 09:03 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 375	Dear all, after this sword fragment did find its way back to me yesterday, I´d love to find out more about its age and geographic background. Any opinions warmly appreciated. To complete the dimensions: The blade is 43mm wide. Kind regards Andreas Last edited by AHorsa; 22nd December 2022 at 09:27 PM.

23rd December 2022, 12:55 PM	#4
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	Hi Andreas, The typology of your sword (type H/I disk pommel, type 2 cross) is very similar to a family with some famous members, like the swords from the River Witham and Whittlesea Mere, which have elaborate inscriptions. Examples are widely scattered around Europe, and I would guess their age overall as around 1200-1250. While looking in my files for some examples to share, I think I have actually stumbled upon your sword itself! It was found in Slovakia, in 1971. I will copy below the description published in Aleksic's Swords from Southeastern Europe. Notice that the length corresponds to your measurement. More information and the illustration are in a recent thesis, Chladné zbrane 10. – 16. storočia pochádzajúce z rieky Váh, by Michal Labuda. 54. Dead backwater of r. Váh, site Pasínek, near Šoporňa, western Slovakia, chance find. Type: I, ?, 2. L= 33.4; BL= 15.7; HL= 18.2; CL= 18.7; BW= 4.5; PH= 5.5; PW= 6; TL= 11.5. Dat.: around 2/2 XIII – beg.of XIV c. Lit.: Katkin 1996, 106. Best regards, Mark Attached Images

23rd December 2022, 04:58 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Another sword likely broke in use Nothing is better than having a publicly published picture from before the current plague of forgeries as provenance and to also know from where the example originated. Good work Reventlov! The irregular broken end is, as has been said before above, absolutely characteristic of a fracture from use. Below is an image of another broken sword of similar age and form showing a similar fracture break. Attached Images

19th July 2016, 12:06 PM	#2
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 183	The new pictures convince me it is an original. Congratulations.

23rd December 2022, 07:01 PM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	A frame can work for this but you only see one side and becomes two dimensional. I like open display having three dimensions however the choice is yours and it will be great to see the results. I would remove the recent corrosion then coat the sword in a rust stabilizer that tends to darken the iron. It makes for a pleasing finish. Iron and steel were valuable and I can only imagine it's rare to find a damaged sword.