Keris for comments

David · 4th October 2012, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Keris Panjang or executioner keris from Sumatra.

I like this one Henk, but with a 13" blade i don't think we can call it a panjang...

Henk · 5th October 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I like this one Henk, but with a 13" blade i don't think we can call it a panjang...

In this way and considering the meaning of the word panjang in the meaning of long or tall you're completely right David

But i refered to my native tongue. When we speak here in Holland about Keris Panjang we don't talk about the size of a keris. For many Dutch keris panjang is equal to excecutioners keris.

David · 5th October 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

In this way and considering the meaning of the word panjang in the meaning of long or tall you're completely right David

But i refered to my native tongue. When we speak here in Holland about Keris Panjang we don't talk about the size of a keris. For many Dutch keris panjang is equal to excecutioners keris.

You will have to explain this a bit further for me Henk because i was completely unaware that in Holland you do not differentiate between keris Panjang, Anak Alang and Bahari. They do all have a similar profile/dhapur, but vary in size. And while there is certainly often debate which category the blade might be when the length falls into the gray zones, keris bahari are usually not confused with panjang or called "executioner keris". As far as i know only the longer keris panjang are the ones that are sometimes referred to as "executioner keris", though i find that name somewhat misleading since i do not believe that execution was the main purpose for this kind of keris. It was more a blade of status AFAIK. Though i had always thought that it was the extra length of these keris panjang that made them suitable to perform execution with the "bloodless" method through the collar bone area. I am not convinced that a 13" blade would be appropriate or effective for that action.

ariel · 5th October 2012, 10:43 PM

Is it Bahari, then?
Still, 13" is plenty to reach the heart from the supraclavicular fossa and go through it, to boot.

David · 6th October 2012, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is it Bahari, then?
Still, 13" is plenty to reach the heart from the supraclavicular fossa and go through it, to boot.

Well Ariel..it's either a long Bahari of a short Anak Alang.

As for how much length you need for the "job", keep in mind that the executioner would need to drive this blade all the way to the hilt to get 13" deep. Frankly, i'd rather not be the subject of THAT experiment!

Royston · 6th October 2012, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the comments Gents.

I will post some more pictures after a clean-up. Away to work for a month so don't hold your breath.

Regards
Roy

DAHenkel · 7th October 2012, 02:48 AM

Nice original piece Roy.

The discussion so far brings up again the maddening problem of terminology in our highly complex little world. A Malay from Siak might have a completely different understanding of the terms, bahari, anak alang and panjang from that of a Malay from Kelantan. A Kelantanese would call this a keris bahari, our museum's original records sometimes record the term keris alang for similar pieces. The term panjang, which in Malay means "long", clearly ought to relate to a piece of a length greater than the usual, and 13 inches is probably about as average a length as you can get as far as kerises are concerned.

The keris panjang is also often referred to as a keris penyalang or "execution" keris. Of course any keris can be used to execute someone, and often were. The keris panjang/penyalang's role was as much symbolic as anything else. 19th century and later portraits of Malay rulers often show the king holding, or at least having in his presence, a keris panjang/penyalang. The underlying message being, I have the power of life or death over my subjects. And this, while also wearing his personal keris, which had a completely different symbolic message - portraying the king as the leader of his military forces and of his ability to defend himself and his right to make war.

So the short answer...call it a bahari, call it an alang or anak alang I suppose...please don't call it a keris panjang

British scholars of the colonial period would have called this a "Malay" or "Malayan" keris. I think the Dutch did sometimes too ("Maleiche") although they tended to prefer "Sumatra", that is, when they bothered to pay any attention to Malay kerises anyway, which was rather rare, besotted as they were by central Javanese kerises.

However the Malay world and particularly the area surrounding the Malacca Straits was a diverse cosmopolitan cultural complex that includes much of the eastern coast of Sumatra; from at least Deli south to about Jambi, and the western coast of the Malay Peninsula from about Kedah southwards into the Riau Archipelago. By at least the 18th century this area was a jumble of Malay, Minangkabau and Bugis influences...not to mention contemporary Indian and European tastes.

Its pretty difficult then to pin down exactly where this keris comes from. However, I presume by "local" antique shop you meant in Glastonbury? Not a hard and fast rule but it does at least favour the probability then that this piece was a colonial era bring back from Malaya. Also, there are at least a few pieces like this in our museum collection linked to Negeri Sembilan. One or two others are provenanced to Riau or to Sumatra though so...grain of salt.

It is a lovely piece though and I hope you are successful in cleaning it up...do please remeber that in restoration, very often, less is more.

Henk · 7th October 2012, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You will have to explain this a bit further for me Henk because i was completely unaware that in Holland you do not differentiate between keris Panjang, Anak Alang and Bahari. They do all have a similar profile/dhapur, but vary in size. And while there is certainly often debate which category the blade might be when the length falls into the gray zones, keris bahari are usually not confused with panjang or called "executioner keris". As far as i know only the longer keris panjang are the ones that are sometimes referred to as "executioner keris", though i find that name somewhat misleading since i do not believe that execution was the main purpose for this kind of keris. It was more a blade of status AFAIK. Though i had always thought that it was the extra length of these keris panjang that made them suitable to perform execution with the "bloodless" method through the collar bone area. I am not convinced that a 13" blade would be appropriate or effective for that action.

David,

DAHenkel explained it already in his answer.
You would be surprised in how many houses here in Holland a keris or two is hanging on the wall while the owner has no idea of specific categories or names. It is just a piece of art from our history. Nothing more nothing less.

A few years ago a colleague asked me, you collect that stuff, don't you? I have a keris somewhere my father brought home when he serves as a marine in Indonesia. I will bring it for you, maybe you like it. He brought a very nice maduran keris an gave it to me. His brother has a dagger from his father. That dagger was a rencong.

And also collectors who like to hang some swords and daggers on the wall, who have no idea in detail what they have in their collection.

The differences we use here in the forum and the knowledge present here is great. The dutch collectors who participate on this forum and also some important collectors who don't participate on this forum are very aware of these specifications.

But most Dutch will call a Keris Bugis or Keris Palembang just a keris from Sumatra. If you can classify a keris in keris Java, Madura, Bali or Sumatra it is often said, he has knowledge about these things.

David · 7th October 2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

But most Dutch will call a Keris Bugis or Keris Palembang just a keris from Sumatra. If you can classify a keris in keris Java, Madura, Bali or Sumatra it is often said, he has knowledge about these things.

Well Henk, in my country most people would refer to any keris as "That weird knife thingy".

From your original statement you gave me the idea that knowledgable collectors in the Netherlands don't make the distinction. That was my only reason for questioning you...

Royston · 9th October 2012, 11:34 AM

Thanks again Gents.

Yes it was purchased in Glastonbury. The shop new nothing about it's history.

I had never even considered this long enough to be considered as a keris Panjang. I have two of them and they are half as long again as this one.

What about the cup ? Anyone any suggestions on the fit of this ?

Regards
Roy

David · 9th October 2012, 12:43 PM

Though an attractive form the cup is certainly too large for the hilt, You might want to consider finding a smaller replacement.

kai · 10th October 2012, 10:41 PM

Hello Roy,

Quote:

What about the cup ? Anyone any suggestions on the fit of this ?

I'm with David, it's obviously a bad replacement (in addition to the non-fit, compare the quality of workmanship...); the ensemble would certainly benefit from a matching pendokok. Old ones are tough to find - you may want to consider having one made in the region?

Regards,
Kai

5th October 2012, 10:43 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is it Bahari, then? Still, 13" is plenty to reach the heart from the supraclavicular fossa and go through it, to boot.

6th October 2012, 10:36 AM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Thanks for the comments Gents. I will post some more pictures after a clean-up. Away to work for a month so don't hold your breath. Regards Roy

7th October 2012, 02:48 AM	#7
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Nice original piece Roy. The discussion so far brings up again the maddening problem of terminology in our highly complex little world. A Malay from Siak might have a completely different understanding of the terms, bahari, anak alang and panjang from that of a Malay from Kelantan. A Kelantanese would call this a keris bahari, our museum's original records sometimes record the term keris alang for similar pieces. The term panjang, which in Malay means "long", clearly ought to relate to a piece of a length greater than the usual, and 13 inches is probably about as average a length as you can get as far as kerises are concerned. The keris panjang is also often referred to as a keris penyalang or "execution" keris. Of course any keris can be used to execute someone, and often were. The keris panjang/penyalang's role was as much symbolic as anything else. 19th century and later portraits of Malay rulers often show the king holding, or at least having in his presence, a keris panjang/penyalang. The underlying message being, I have the power of life or death over my subjects. And this, while also wearing his personal keris, which had a completely different symbolic message - portraying the king as the leader of his military forces and of his ability to defend himself and his right to make war. So the short answer...call it a bahari, call it an alang or anak alang I suppose...please don't call it a keris panjang British scholars of the colonial period would have called this a "Malay" or "Malayan" keris. I think the Dutch did sometimes too ("Maleiche") although they tended to prefer "Sumatra", that is, when they bothered to pay any attention to Malay kerises anyway, which was rather rare, besotted as they were by central Javanese kerises. However the Malay world and particularly the area surrounding the Malacca Straits was a diverse cosmopolitan cultural complex that includes much of the eastern coast of Sumatra; from at least Deli south to about Jambi, and the western coast of the Malay Peninsula from about Kedah southwards into the Riau Archipelago. By at least the 18th century this area was a jumble of Malay, Minangkabau and Bugis influences...not to mention contemporary Indian and European tastes. Its pretty difficult then to pin down exactly where this keris comes from. However, I presume by "local" antique shop you meant in Glastonbury? Not a hard and fast rule but it does at least favour the probability then that this piece was a colonial era bring back from Malaya. Also, there are at least a few pieces like this in our museum collection linked to Negeri Sembilan. One or two others are provenanced to Riau or to Sumatra though so...grain of salt. It is a lovely piece though and I hope you are successful in cleaning it up...do please remeber that in restoration, very often, less is more.

9th October 2012, 11:34 AM	#10
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Thanks again Gents. Yes it was purchased in Glastonbury. The shop new nothing about it's history. I had never even considered this long enough to be considered as a keris Panjang. I have two of them and they are half as long again as this one. What about the cup ? Anyone any suggestions on the fit of this ? Regards Roy

9th October 2012, 12:43 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Though an attractive form the cup is certainly too large for the hilt, You might want to consider finding a smaller replacement.