Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

[df1967]

Wau thanks, this seems to be the mark, in the same position also as on your picture.Do you know what this Italian book is saying over this smith mark? Unbelievable what knowledge is on this website!!!

[df1967]

Maybe this pic is better

[fernando]

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


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[Lee]

Scan of text from Armi Bianche Italiane, p. 354:

[fernando]

Thank you Lee,
As i suspected, there is no mentioning of the smith, or of the symbol, except that the blade is 'marked in the middle' (marcata al medio); my interpretation subject to correction, of course.

[Victrix]

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I’m not an Italian speaker but understand the sword is believed to have belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Gian_Giacomo_Trivulzio) and here is a photo of the sword in its entirety. Not sure what conclusions we can draw from that concerning the katzbalger under discussion.

You are correct; as per post 20# the caption in the book refers that the sword probably (probabilmente) belonged to Gian Giacomo Trivulzio, Marshal of France. It also mentions that the sword was decorated by Ercole dei Fedeli (circa 1499) a famous Italian (Jewish) goldsmith and master sword engraver. I gather that the inlaid mark would be that of the sword smith (forgerer) and not of Fedeli.
... But i would not draw conclusions that such mark ought to be the same as in the katzbalger; as i said, only a possible equivalence ... for what is worth .



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[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? .
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


.

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version

So we stand together Filipe ... or we would; my copy was a gift; can not complain .

[cornelistromp]

The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

[df1967]

Also possible jasper, all which we are doing are speculating, nevertheless on a high standard. In such cases, after more than 500 years, nobody could be for sure how or who the manufacture was nore with which components they worked. Anyhow, they where for sure master of their craft, this and the historical terms made this field so fascinating for me!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

While the use of latten, as suggested, is notably a Solingen (or Passau?) convention, I would note that this 'castle' mark (with four crenellations) is more to the example shown in the excerpt from Lenciewicz , where it is shown as from 'Italia', however in profile it seems markedly different from the discussion sword example.


The particular configuration seen on this blade appears to me more of a 'trident', and with the obvious traditional connection to the 'gladiator'.
The use of latten does not confine its presence to Germany, however the use of the cross and orb does seem to do so.

This compounds the familiar problem of makers from one country or region, working in other areas retaining their styles, character and convention in their work despite the contrary geographic classification.
For example, cuphilts of Milanese form made in regions of Lyon in France etc.

The plot thickens