Dagger ID please

[Atlantia]

Hi all,
Picked this one up today, think I paid over the odds for it, but it was one of 'those' deals! I know the chap and he's a nice bloke and he got me to drive over with a description that sounded like a pesh-kabz. Yes he remembered it totally differently from the reality as its not been out of the drawer in years etc, etc.....

Anyway, it seems fairly familiar,but I can't place it!
Help me out peeps! ;-)

Thanks
Gene

[Rich]

It's a Spanish knife from the late 18th-early 19th C. I had one
exactly like it a while back. Sold it for a pretty penny. Nice find.

Rich

[Atlantia]

Oh, brilliant! Thanks Rich.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's a Spanish knife from the late 18th-early 19th C. I had one
exactly like it a while back. Sold it for a pretty penny. Nice find.

Rich

Yes. It seems to belong to the style called "mediterranean". A very interesting piece. The argentinean and canarian puñales are closely related to this style.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Indeed, it's Spanish. Probably from the city of Albacete and also probably 19th c. It's in an excellent condition, congratulations

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Yes. It seems to belong to the style called "mediterranean". A very interesting piece. The argentinean and canarian puñales are closely related to this style.
Regards

Gonzalo

Thanks Gonzalo,
I don't think I've had one quite like it before but something similar perhaps.
I will be interested to investigate the similar knives you speak of.
Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Marc

Indeed, it's Spanish. Probably from the city of Albacete and also probably 19th c. It's in an excellent condition, congratulations

Wow! Thanks Marc! Is this style specific to Albacete?
Do you know what they were for? Are they a utility knife or a defensive dagger? Any info very greatfully appreciated.

Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Now that I know that this is European, could a mod' be kind enough to move it to the new Euro forum?

[Gonzalo G]

You can see the argentinean puñales here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

and you can see modern canarian knives in the old fashion here:

http://cuchilloscanarios.com/

Regards

Gonzalo

[Atlantia]

Thanks Gonzalo,
There are some very beautiful knives there, and some very 'grand' ones! Some of these Gauchos clearly had refined tastes, and money to indulge them.
I've seen a few 'lesser' knives of that type in the UK over the years, but they are not common. Do they come up for sale often in Mexico?
The 'asymetric' shape still gives them a utility or even 'cutlery' look to me, but having had mine for a whole day now ;-) I find the shape is starting to look more pleasing to me. I could see myself having a collection of these if I lived somewhere where they were regularly available.
Do you have any in your collection?

Regards
Gene

[Gonzalo G]

The puñal criollo is an utility knife for all sorts of work. Gauchos were poor man, but the land owners, burocrats and army officers could indulge on silver mounted puñales and facones. They don´t show in México, but I´m member of an argentinean forum where most of the best badesmiths and some of the best siversmiths from Argentina joins. I can put you in contact with people which mounts puñales criollos on chased silver or nickel silver.

No, I don´t collect them, nor have any.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Wow! Thanks Marc! Is this style specific to Albacete?

AFAIK, not specific from it, as such, but at the time Albacete was a major center of production of daggers and knives in Spain, so it's a safe assumption.

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Do you know what they were for? Are they a utility knife or a defensive dagger? Any info very greatfully appreciated.

Regarding your other questions, having a fixed blade turned such a knife in something that could be used effectively in a defensive situation, even the legislation of the time reflected this. Besides, the false edge isn't usually sharpened in these knives, though its presence favors the penetration of the point. So, you can say it was both a utility and a defense tool.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

The puñal criollo is an utility knife for all sorts of work. Gauchos were poor man, but the land owners, burocrats and army officers could indulge on silver mounted puñales and facones. They don´t show in México, but I´m member of an argentinean forum where most of the best badesmiths and some of the best siversmiths from Argentina joins. I can put you in contact with people which mounts puñales criollos on chased silver or nickel silver.

No, I don´t collect them, nor have any.
Regards

Gonzalo

LOL, I'd love some of those beautiful silver mounted ones, but alas I'm as 'poor as a Gaucho' at the moment ;-)

I wonder, has the lineage of these knives been completely mapped?
I mean are the Gaucho knives decendants of Spanish knives and the North American bowie a hybrid of Gaucho and trade knives?


Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Marc

AFAIK, not specific from it, as such, but at the time Albacete was a major center of production of daggers and knives in Spain, so it's a safe assumption.

Regarding your other questions, having a fixed blade turned such a knife in something that could be used effectively in a defensive situation, even the legislation of the time reflected this. Besides, the false edge isn't usually sharpened in these knives, though its presence favors the penetration of the point. So, you can say it was both a utility and a defense tool.

Ah, I see. Does this type have a generic name?

So who carried this sort of knife? Was it commonplace for men to carry them or just specific sections of society (like the gaucho knives)?

I must admit I really like the knife now! :-)

Regards
Gene

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I wonder, has the lineage of these knives been completely mapped?
I mean are the Gaucho knives decendants of Spanish knives and the North American bowie a hybrid of Gaucho and trade knives?

No, the so called "gaucho knives" (they were not exclusive of the gauchos) and the bowie are independant. Abel Domenech has hypothesised that both could have common ancestors, and this applies only on the case of the puñal, not on the rest of the argentinean-uruguayan edged weapons. The puñal seems to have it´s ancestry in the Belduque, Albacete and Flandes knives brought by the Spaniards to our lands, as Domenech says. This is a very probable fact, though the history of this weapons is not an exact science and there could it be some uncertainties. You can find some examples of the Belduque knife on the web, associated to north american colonization. On the case of the bowie, it could be another spanish influences, as some forms of it are very similar to a certain type of mexican knives, but this is a a latter lineage not related with your knife.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Chris Evans]

Hi Atlantia,

Ah, I see. Does this type have a generic name?

In olden times knives were known by all sorts of colloquialisms, but that knife of yours probably would have been known simply as a "cuchillo", that is, a knife. However, as the case of Argentina clearly demonstrates, at various times it could have been also a "puñal" or a "daga" despite of strictly speaking being neither, not to mention a number of slang terms. Until WWI, the Spanish population was largely illiterate and as such much less concerned about linguistic accuracy and consistency than modern curators and historians.

So who carried this sort of knife? Was it commonplace for men to carry them or just specific sections of society (like the gaucho knives)?

After the ascendancy of the Burbons upon the Spanish throne just after 1700, all swords, fixed bladed knives and such like items were banned in Spain, at least to commoners. The bans were enforced with varying degrees of consistency ever since, but enforced they were and still are. So the short answer is that by definition, only outlaws and some of the (lesser) nobility would have carried them.

As an aside, it was on account of the ban on fixed blade knives that the large Spanish folding knife, the "navaja", was developed.

With the above said, there was a thriving industry in Spain from the 2nd half of the 19th century, mostly in Albacete, but also in Toledo, making "banned" articles for souvenirs, display pieces and export. Charles D'Ávillier and Gustav Dore mentioned these in 1862, in their published travelogue, Voyage through Spain.

Cheers
Chris