Origin of scabbards

ariel · 14th November 2007, 10:23 PM

Here is one that just ended
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010
Taiwanese, I presume?

BTW, how old? And, is it indeed "$260" rare and interesting ?
Now, in a more serious vein: this type of scabbards ( open on one side and just having thin wire or rattan "rails") comes from 3 places I know about:
-Taiwan
- Philippines ( Ifugao)
- Assam ( Naga)

Was there a common ethnic/geographic root for the three of them? Or was it just a coincidental idea?
And, if I missed another group, please correct me.

Lew · 14th November 2007, 10:26 PM

Tourist junk for sure.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2007, 10:29 PM

ariel, Frankensword and now this, what fun! it is a mad world inhabited by the strangest of creatures

This is one of those tourist Taiwan things not cheap either

.

Rich · 14th November 2007, 10:51 PM

Ariel wrote:

" Was there a common ethnic/geographic root for the three of them? "

Yes, the common root is to fleece tourists out of their money :-)
Common to all cultures, no specific ethnic nor geographic root.

Rich S

Rick · 14th November 2007, 11:38 PM

With respect to the Taiwanese aboriginal culture the 'open scabbard' link is with the Philippines .

The Naga, not so sure ........

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2007, 12:21 AM

Although I can't add anything constructive on this, I'd just like to note that Ariels question is very well placed, and I look forward to hearing some answers from those well versed on these weapons.

ariel · 15th November 2007, 12:50 AM

Well, boys, you had your laugh

Now, for the second part of my question: is there a link between the three ( or more?) open scabbards from Taiwan, Philippines and Assam?

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2007, 08:03 PM

You forgot Bhutan. Is there a link? I would only say in form and function, materials to hand and wealth. Nothing to do with technique as very good and expressive metalwork can be found in all the afore mentioned lands.

VANDOO · 16th November 2007, 06:43 AM

TAIWAN WW2, MOST LIKELY TOURIST OR JAPANESE WAR SOUVINEER BUT MIGHT BE A STYLE STILL IN USE LOCALLY. OVER PRICED UNLESS YOU GO BY THE PRICES IN THE $80.00 BOOK I WARNED ABOUT IN A PREVIOUS POST.

THE FOUR COUNTRYS MENTIONED USE THE OPEN SCABBARD TAIWAN AND BUTHAN USE THE METAL BANDS OR STAPLES BUT THE PHILIPPINE AND NAGA MODELS ONLY HAVE A FEW WOVEN BANDS NO METAL USED ON ANY I HAVE SEEN. THE OPEN SCABBARD SEEMS TO BE A GOOD IDEA IN WET RAINFOREST, TROPICAL JUNGLE AREAS AND PERHAPS HAS LINKS IN THE MIGRATIONS OF THE DISTANT PAST BEFORE HISTORICAL RECORDS. EVERYTHING FROM CUSTOMS, BELIEFS TO DRESS,ART AND WEAPONS SEEMS TO BE LINKED IN MANY WAYS ALL OVER THE WORLD. COMMON THEMES RUN THRU-OUT MANS HISTORY AS WELL AS A FEW BIG DIFERENCES IN SOME AREAS AND TIMES.

ariel · 16th November 2007, 04:25 PM

I was unaware of the Bhutanese examples: does anybody have pictures to post?

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2007, 06:15 PM

These are commonly known as being Bhutanese but I do wonder if they are more likely to be from the foot hills rather than the Kingdom of Bhutan.

PUFF · 17th November 2007, 01:24 PM

Hi,
My hypothesis 's they are linked by their Austro-Indonesian root, especially between (Aboribinese)Taiwan and Philippine people.
I 'm currently in Taiwan. And I had mannaged to meet an aboriginese knife smith on eastern part of the island.
http://gsh.taiwanschoolnet.org/gsh20...sh/craft02.htm

In his shop, many knives are "real" enough. Although wooden parts and decoration are some distance away from custom/genuine quality but the blades are well heat treated and the tangs are secured with pins. His situation 's very much similar to those in Thailand, where many tradition knife making bussiness 's on their transformation from "knife/tool smith" to "souvineir manufacturer".

By the way, I have got 3 samples from him. They are souvineir/tool quality at reasonable prices.

PUFF · 17th November 2007, 01:37 PM

Their prices are range from 20 USD for boar hunter to 40-45 USD for longer peices.

As I told you, the blades are well treated and tangs are secured. They are absolutely functional.

But their down side 's the scabbards/handle are made of softwood (pine?) instead of hardwood. The rattan string are replaced with metal wire. And the decorations were burn-in instead of carve-in. But I could be wrong, though.

Do you guys have any genuine piece of austro-indonesian aboriginese knife/scabbard ?

dennee · 17th November 2007, 06:51 PM

The "Bhutanese" shortsword is the shortsword or "ban" of the Rongpa (generally known as Lepcha from the Nepalese "Lapche"). There were presumably some Lepchas in the heavily wooded valleys of Bhutan, but their homeland is more properly Sikkim, separated from Bhutan by the Tibetan Chumbi Valley. Of course, national boundaries fail to neatly circumscribe peoples.

yuanzhumin · 18th November 2007, 04:41 AM

Hi guys,
-For the Ebay knife, it is an “authentic” tourist knife made 50 years ago for the American troops stationed in Taiwan. The guy that bought it first here (in Taiwan), at the beginning of the 1950s, must have then been transferred to Japan. You can see another sample pictured on the page of my website plus my comments in general about the Taiwan aboriginal fake or tourist/airport art.
-For The Taiwan and the Philippines link, it has been demonstrated that Taiwan is the cradle of the Austronesian civilization. The Austronesian people went to the east to Easter Island, and to the west to Madagascar. The Hawaiian, the Tahitian, the Maoris…. are all from Austronesian origin. The indigenous people of Philippines are also, as the Philippines islands were the first they settled in when beginning their vast migration from Taiwan down to the whole Pacific. On the forum part of my website, I recently posted an article on this subject.
http://formosatribal.aceboard.com/27...an-origins.htm
-For the authentic stuff, I have around 20 authentic knives and other weapons from the Taiwan aborigines that are exhibited on my website. They are classified in different ethnic groups. Check on them and also on the links part, as you can find a link to museums and other websites interested in the same subject.
www.formosatribal.com
Best,
yuanzhumin

PUFF · 18th November 2007, 02:38 PM

That is!!!.. I was so stupid. There 's an aboriginese museum in Taipei, just 4 stations from my place. And I forgot that!!! I 'm leaving Taipei at the end of this month.... Better visit it on next weekend.

yuanzhumin · 19th November 2007, 03:09 AM

Hi PUFF

If you are in Taipei, here are the links to the 2 museums currently exhibiting Taiwan aboriginal art in the capital city.

The Shung Ye Museum of Formosan aborigines
http://museum.cca.gov.tw/en/directory/show.php?id=60
http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/museums/1294_shung-ye.html

The National Taiwan Museum
http://www.ntm.gov.tw/eng/eng_index.asp

This third museum is in the suburbs of Taipei and does have nice archeological exhibits on a permanent basis. Next month, it will also have a special exhibit for 9 months on Paiwan art, in which two dozens of pieces will come from my collection.
http://www.sshm.tpc.gov.tw/web/Home?...lay&page=flash

Best,
Yuanzhumin

PUFF · 19th November 2007, 12:18 PM

Hi yuanzhumin, Many thanks for the links. I will visit The Shung Ye Museum of Formosan aborigines this weekend. I have to come back here around x'mas. So I can attend the special exhibition at the archeological museum too.

By the way, does traditional chinese weaponary house at Rau He night market (near songshan station) worth for visit?

yuanzhumin · 19th November 2007, 02:42 PM

Hi PUFF
Wow, I have not been back to this night market for at least ten years, despite the fact I'm not living that far away from it. I have been more often in the Tunghua Street Night market and the biggest one, in Shilin. If I don't remember seeing any chinese weaponry shop at the Rao He market, this reminds me about the deep fried crab and the oyster omelet you can taste there.
By the way, I published in a post last year a link to an article about a knife maker whose shop is in the Shilin night market. So if you have the time !
Enjoy your stay in Taipei
Yuanzhumin

PUFF · 19th November 2007, 03:28 PM

I got information about the RaoHe weaponary house from...
http://wuswordproject.com/index.php?m=20060204

I had been at the market once. The gallery seems to be a private place, not an public store. It 's on 2nd or 3rd floor of a "slot" on the southern side. There was a small sign showing a phone number for an appointment call. But I didn't bother

.

I saw a link to a knife shop in Shilin market (selling production and local kitchen knives). But the market 's real huge. I went to the market twice but couldn't find it. Would you mind to give me some direction?

PS : My apology for hijacking the thread

yuanzhumin · 19th November 2007, 11:32 PM

Here is the address of the knife maker :
74 Dabei Road
Shilin
Phone 2881 2856
(Dabei : 'Da' for big and 'bei' for the north in Chinese)
It's a secondary street crossing the main Wenlin Road, at the north of the night market.
If I remember well there is a police station not far away. If you find it, you ask the cops for the direction, and they will tell you. That's what I did.

yuanzhumin

PUFF · 20th November 2007, 12:54 AM

Many thanks,

I will check it this evening.

yuanzhumin · 20th November 2007, 12:46 PM

Hello all of you

Coming back to Ariel's initial post about the link between Taiwan, the Philippines and finally the rest of the Austronesian world, here is a fascinating article with a completely new idea about the jade trade and also Austronesian languages brought along the jade trading routes confirming that Taiwan is a cradle for the Austronesian civilisation.

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/0711....2007.268.html

I guess that with the jade, were also coming the weapons, mostly when at that time, weapons were often made of stone, and why not of jade for the ceremonial ones.

Concerning the scabbards, I come back also to Ariel's initial post :
is there any other people/cultures using a scabbard open on one side ?

I will add one of mine :
What is about the one sided scabbard ? Is there any advantages ?

Thanks
yuanzhumin

14th November 2007, 10:23 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Origin of scabbards Here is one that just ended http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=010 Taiwanese, I presume? BTW, how old? And, is it indeed "$260" rare and interesting ? Now, in a more serious vein: this type of scabbards ( open on one side and just having thin wire or rattan "rails") comes from 3 places I know about: -Taiwan - Philippines ( Ifugao) - Assam ( Naga) Was there a common ethnic/geographic root for the three of them? Or was it just a coincidental idea? And, if I missed another group, please correct me. Last edited by ariel; 15th November 2007 at 12:51 AM.

18th November 2007, 04:41 AM	#15
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Taiwan austornesian people and weapons Hi guys, -For the Ebay knife, it is an “authentic” tourist knife made 50 years ago for the American troops stationed in Taiwan. The guy that bought it first here (in Taiwan), at the beginning of the 1950s, must have then been transferred to Japan. You can see another sample pictured on the page of my website plus my comments in general about the Taiwan aboriginal fake or tourist/airport art. -For The Taiwan and the Philippines link, it has been demonstrated that Taiwan is the cradle of the Austronesian civilization. The Austronesian people went to the east to Easter Island, and to the west to Madagascar. The Hawaiian, the Tahitian, the Maoris…. are all from Austronesian origin. The indigenous people of Philippines are also, as the Philippines islands were the first they settled in when beginning their vast migration from Taiwan down to the whole Pacific. On the forum part of my website, I recently posted an article on this subject. http://formosatribal.aceboard.com/27...an-origins.htm -For the authentic stuff, I have around 20 authentic knives and other weapons from the Taiwan aborigines that are exhibited on my website. They are classified in different ethnic groups. Check on them and also on the links part, as you can find a link to museums and other websites interested in the same subject. www.formosatribal.com Best, yuanzhumin

19th November 2007, 03:09 AM	#17
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Exhibits in Taipei Hi PUFF If you are in Taipei, here are the links to the 2 museums currently exhibiting Taiwan aboriginal art in the capital city. The Shung Ye Museum of Formosan aborigines http://museum.cca.gov.tw/en/directory/show.php?id=60 http://www.sinica.edu.tw/tit/museums/1294_shung-ye.html The National Taiwan Museum http://www.ntm.gov.tw/eng/eng_index.asp This third museum is in the suburbs of Taipei and does have nice archeological exhibits on a permanent basis. Next month, it will also have a special exhibit for 9 months on Paiwan art, in which two dozens of pieces will come from my collection. http://www.sshm.tpc.gov.tw/web/Home?...lay&page=flash Best, Yuanzhumin

20th November 2007, 12:46 PM	#23
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Taiwan, the cradle, and back to the scabbard Hello all of you Coming back to Ariel's initial post about the link between Taiwan, the Philippines and finally the rest of the Austronesian world, here is a fascinating article with a completely new idea about the jade trade and also Austronesian languages brought along the jade trading routes confirming that Taiwan is a cradle for the Austronesian civilisation. http://www.nature.com/news/2007/0711....2007.268.html I guess that with the jade, were also coming the weapons, mostly when at that time, weapons were often made of stone, and why not of jade for the ceremonial ones. Concerning the scabbards, I come back also to Ariel's initial post : is there any other people/cultures using a scabbard open on one side ? I will add one of mine : What is about the one sided scabbard ? Is there any advantages ? Thanks yuanzhumin

14th November 2007, 10:26 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tourist junk for sure. Lew

14th November 2007, 10:29 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	ariel, Frankensword and now this, what fun! it is a mad world inhabited by the strangest of creatures This is one of those tourist Taiwan things not cheap either .

14th November 2007, 10:51 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Ariel wrote: " Was there a common ethnic/geographic root for the three of them? " Yes, the common root is to fleece tourists out of their money :-) Common to all cultures, no specific ethnic nor geographic root. Rich S

14th November 2007, 11:38 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	With respect to the Taiwanese aboriginal culture the 'open scabbard' link is with the Philippines . The Naga, not so sure ........

15th November 2007, 12:21 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Although I can't add anything constructive on this, I'd just like to note that Ariels question is very well placed, and I look forward to hearing some answers from those well versed on these weapons.

15th November 2007, 12:50 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, boys, you had your laugh Now, for the second part of my question: is there a link between the three ( or more?) open scabbards from Taiwan, Philippines and Assam?

15th November 2007, 08:03 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	You forgot Bhutan. Is there a link? I would only say in form and function, materials to hand and wealth. Nothing to do with technique as very good and expressive metalwork can be found in all the afore mentioned lands.

16th November 2007, 06:43 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TAIWAN WW2, MOST LIKELY TOURIST OR JAPANESE WAR SOUVINEER BUT MIGHT BE A STYLE STILL IN USE LOCALLY. OVER PRICED UNLESS YOU GO BY THE PRICES IN THE $80.00 BOOK I WARNED ABOUT IN A PREVIOUS POST. THE FOUR COUNTRYS MENTIONED USE THE OPEN SCABBARD TAIWAN AND BUTHAN USE THE METAL BANDS OR STAPLES BUT THE PHILIPPINE AND NAGA MODELS ONLY HAVE A FEW WOVEN BANDS NO METAL USED ON ANY I HAVE SEEN. THE OPEN SCABBARD SEEMS TO BE A GOOD IDEA IN WET RAINFOREST, TROPICAL JUNGLE AREAS AND PERHAPS HAS LINKS IN THE MIGRATIONS OF THE DISTANT PAST BEFORE HISTORICAL RECORDS. EVERYTHING FROM CUSTOMS, BELIEFS TO DRESS,ART AND WEAPONS SEEMS TO BE LINKED IN MANY WAYS ALL OVER THE WORLD. COMMON THEMES RUN THRU-OUT MANS HISTORY AS WELL AS A FEW BIG DIFERENCES IN SOME AREAS AND TIMES.

16th November 2007, 04:25 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I was unaware of the Bhutanese examples: does anybody have pictures to post?

16th November 2007, 06:15 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	These are commonly known as being Bhutanese but I do wonder if they are more likely to be from the foot hills rather than the Kingdom of Bhutan.

17th November 2007, 01:24 PM	#12
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi, My hypothesis 's they are linked by their Austro-Indonesian root, especially between (Aboribinese)Taiwan and Philippine people. I 'm currently in Taiwan. And I had mannaged to meet an aboriginese knife smith on eastern part of the island. http://gsh.taiwanschoolnet.org/gsh20...sh/craft02.htm In his shop, many knives are "real" enough. Although wooden parts and decoration are some distance away from custom/genuine quality but the blades are well heat treated and the tangs are secured with pins. His situation 's very much similar to those in Thailand, where many tradition knife making bussiness 's on their transformation from "knife/tool smith" to "souvineir manufacturer". By the way, I have got 3 samples from him. They are souvineir/tool quality at reasonable prices.

17th November 2007, 01:37 PM	#13
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Their prices are range from 20 USD for boar hunter to 40-45 USD for longer peices. As I told you, the blades are well treated and tangs are secured. They are absolutely functional. But their down side 's the scabbards/handle are made of softwood (pine?) instead of hardwood. The rattan string are replaced with metal wire. And the decorations were burn-in instead of carve-in. But I could be wrong, though. Do you guys have any genuine piece of austro-indonesian aboriginese knife/scabbard ?

17th November 2007, 06:51 PM	#14
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	The "Bhutanese" shortsword is the shortsword or "ban" of the Rongpa (generally known as Lepcha from the Nepalese "Lapche"). There were presumably some Lepchas in the heavily wooded valleys of Bhutan, but their homeland is more properly Sikkim, separated from Bhutan by the Tibetan Chumbi Valley. Of course, national boundaries fail to neatly circumscribe peoples.

18th November 2007, 02:38 PM	#16
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	That is!!!.. I was so stupid. There 's an aboriginese museum in Taipei, just 4 stations from my place. And I forgot that!!! I 'm leaving Taipei at the end of this month.... Better visit it on next weekend.

19th November 2007, 12:18 PM	#18
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi yuanzhumin, Many thanks for the links. I will visit The Shung Ye Museum of Formosan aborigines this weekend. I have to come back here around x'mas. So I can attend the special exhibition at the archeological museum too. By the way, does traditional chinese weaponary house at Rau He night market (near songshan station) worth for visit?

19th November 2007, 02:42 PM	#19
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Hi PUFF Wow, I have not been back to this night market for at least ten years, despite the fact I'm not living that far away from it. I have been more often in the Tunghua Street Night market and the biggest one, in Shilin. If I don't remember seeing any chinese weaponry shop at the Rao He market, this reminds me about the deep fried crab and the oyster omelet you can taste there. By the way, I published in a post last year a link to an article about a knife maker whose shop is in the Shilin night market. So if you have the time ! Enjoy your stay in Taipei Yuanzhumin

19th November 2007, 03:28 PM	#20
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I got information about the RaoHe weaponary house from... http://wuswordproject.com/index.php?m=20060204 I had been at the market once. The gallery seems to be a private place, not an public store. It 's on 2nd or 3rd floor of a "slot" on the southern side. There was a small sign showing a phone number for an appointment call. But I didn't bother . I saw a link to a knife shop in Shilin market (selling production and local kitchen knives). But the market 's real huge. I went to the market twice but couldn't find it. Would you mind to give me some direction? PS : My apology for hijacking the thread

19th November 2007, 11:32 PM	#21
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Here is the address of the knife maker : 74 Dabei Road Shilin Phone 2881 2856 (Dabei : 'Da' for big and 'bei' for the north in Chinese) It's a secondary street crossing the main Wenlin Road, at the north of the night market. If I remember well there is a police station not far away. If you find it, you ask the cops for the direction, and they will tell you. That's what I did. yuanzhumin

20th November 2007, 12:54 AM	#22
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Many thanks, I will check it this evening.