Mystery sword...part 2

katana · 28th September 2007, 03:09 PM

I have recently posted this sword with an Ethiopian sword, but, since I have received it, it has posed more questions, which, I feel should be dealt with seperately....hence a new post.

The sword appears to be fairly 'new' when viewing the photos, but in reality seems to have some age. The sword has been lacquered (blade and hilt) after it was cleaned. (which I will remove) This was commonly done 19th C / very early 20th, whether this is the case for this sword...I do not know.

The crossguard with its Indo Persian style shows there once was a knucklebow. The blade is well tempered, twin fullered (thin one just below spine and a wider one below that. Evidence that the sword was shortened at some time (fullers extend to the tip) I assume due to damage.
A threaded pommel nut is there but the tang has been 'peened over', handle is brass wire over wood.

The sword is light and 'lively', well balanced and seems likely a 'user'.
In fact, to pre-empt the cries of ceremonial, I did a spot of gardening ...or more acurately 'tree pruning'. The result of a single handed diagonal down strike is shown in one of the photos below

( not quite Tameshigiri ......branch diameter 1"/ 2.5 cms) Fortunately my neighbours are used to my 'gardening' with 'unusual' implements.

So what is this sword ? To me it seems to be a 'hybrid' , a European manufactured sword with Indo Persian styling or an Indian produced sword in a Euro style

I have found no info at all, so please .....any ideas or comments.

katana · 29th September 2007, 06:51 PM

I should have included details of the blade....it has a slight curve..( not straight as the pics suggested.) Fullers seem forged (slight deformation of part of the narrower fuller caused by the wider one suggests this)

Could the blade be a millitary pattern that was rehilted....perhaps in India (using the original tang and a modified (cut down) brass Tulwar hilt )

Has anybody got any ideas ?

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 30th September 2007, 07:44 AM

Hi David,
Despite the given resemblance in the quillon form and overall appearance of the hilt, I don't believe this sword has any connection to the Indian tulwar. It seems to be, as has been noted, a military regulation type sword of uncertain nationality, somewhat of forms used for non commissioned officers about mid 19th c. The brass hilts on these are in numerous variants as production companies industrialized and many outfitters catered to officers of specialized units and later military fraternal organizations.
Looks like a pretty solid piece, and as you note, well up to being used.
Its often puzzling to see swords of this type often in unusual stages of alteration, such as the removal of the knucklebow etc. I once had a Civil War period M1840 NCO sword and the braided brass wire grip had been removed and replaced with a most interesting bone or horn grip, certainly anything but regulation. But why do this to a sword after its period of use had ended? Never could figure it out.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 30th September 2007, 01:44 PM

Hi Jim,
thank you for your valued opinion

I always thought that military pattern swords had very strict guidelines, with little or no variation. I see now that this is incorrect.
The crossguard is puzzling, compared to a number of Tulwars I own, it is dimensionally 'accurate', and the way the original knucklebow connected to the crossguard (ie the cast shape at the 'junction' where 'bow' and guard meet) is identical. I still have been unable to find similar swords (with or without the knucklebow) ... the 'cable' design is probably a clue...but I have no idea as to the significance, if any .

I do feel that late 19th C is likely for this sword, and, finding info on 'WHITES'
has been fruit-less so I cannot be certain.

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 05:25 AM

Hi David,
Actually your thought on this piece having certain tulwar characteristics is interestingly more well placed than my original thought, and it does seem this could have some association with the British Raj in India. While military regulation was indeed very controlled in the weapons of rank and file, the officers often were given wide range in the weapons they wore. This was especially true in India, where officers often assumed many elements of Indian fashion and often carried hybridized weapons.

The 'Whites' marking may well suggest one of the many outfitters that existed in both England and in India providing such weapons to both British officers, and in some cases, British gentry in India. Possibly this sword may have been intended for such instance. The decoration at the center of the crosspiece is quite interesting, and may offer some clues as you suggest.
Swords like this are always exciting to research, you never know what mysteries might be revealed!!! The games afoot!!!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 2nd October 2007, 09:36 PM

Hi Jim,
thanks for your latest reply. I feel almost certain that this has (had)connections with India.

Interestingly, there was a documentary recently shown, that showed the history of British involvement in India. It was very common that officers (during the early stages of Colonial rule) embraced the Indian way of life, often wearing the local attire , when 'out of uniform', some 'adopted Hindu/Islamic practices and a number took Indian brides. Many had a great 'appreciation' of Indian history/culture.

But, much of this was 'hidden' ......it seems that British officials turned a 'blind eye'....and perhaps due to 'negative propaganda; the British public never knew. I would assume that it was in the interests of these officials that the British people continued to believe that India was a 'second class' society for political reasons. If the public had discovered the facts .....embarassing questions would have been asked of the government.

28th September 2007, 03:09 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Mystery sword...part 2 I have recently posted this sword with an Ethiopian sword, but, since I have received it, it has posed more questions, which, I feel should be dealt with seperately....hence a new post. The sword appears to be fairly 'new' when viewing the photos, but in reality seems to have some age. The sword has been lacquered (blade and hilt) after it was cleaned. (which I will remove) This was commonly done 19th C / very early 20th, whether this is the case for this sword...I do not know. The crossguard with its Indo Persian style shows there once was a knucklebow. The blade is well tempered, twin fullered (thin one just below spine and a wider one below that. Evidence that the sword was shortened at some time (fullers extend to the tip) I assume due to damage. A threaded pommel nut is there but the tang has been 'peened over', handle is brass wire over wood. The sword is light and 'lively', well balanced and seems likely a 'user'. In fact, to pre-empt the cries of ceremonial, I did a spot of gardening ...or more acurately 'tree pruning'. The result of a single handed diagonal down strike is shown in one of the photos below ( not quite Tameshigiri ......branch diameter 1"/ 2.5 cms) Fortunately my neighbours are used to my 'gardening' with 'unusual' implements. So what is this sword ? To me it seems to be a 'hybrid' , a European manufactured sword with Indo Persian styling or an Indian produced sword in a Euro style I have found no info at all, so please .....any ideas or comments. Attached Images Last edited by katana; 29th September 2007 at 12:44 AM.

29th September 2007, 06:51 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I should have included details of the blade....it has a slight curve..( not straight as the pics suggested.) Fullers seem forged (slight deformation of part of the narrower fuller caused by the wider one suggests this) Could the blade be a millitary pattern that was rehilted....perhaps in India (using the original tang and a modified (cut down) brass Tulwar hilt ) Has anybody got any ideas ? Regards David

30th September 2007, 07:44 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	Hi David, Despite the given resemblance in the quillon form and overall appearance of the hilt, I don't believe this sword has any connection to the Indian tulwar. It seems to be, as has been noted, a military regulation type sword of uncertain nationality, somewhat of forms used for non commissioned officers about mid 19th c. The brass hilts on these are in numerous variants as production companies industrialized and many outfitters catered to officers of specialized units and later military fraternal organizations. Looks like a pretty solid piece, and as you note, well up to being used. Its often puzzling to see swords of this type often in unusual stages of alteration, such as the removal of the knucklebow etc. I once had a Civil War period M1840 NCO sword and the braided brass wire grip had been removed and replaced with a most interesting bone or horn grip, certainly anything but regulation. But why do this to a sword after its period of use had ended? Never could figure it out. Best regards, Jim

30th September 2007, 01:44 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, thank you for your valued opinion I always thought that military pattern swords had very strict guidelines, with little or no variation. I see now that this is incorrect. The crossguard is puzzling, compared to a number of Tulwars I own, it is dimensionally 'accurate', and the way the original knucklebow connected to the crossguard (ie the cast shape at the 'junction' where 'bow' and guard meet) is identical. I still have been unable to find similar swords (with or without the knucklebow) ... the 'cable' design is probably a clue...but I have no idea as to the significance, if any . I do feel that late 19th C is likely for this sword, and, finding info on 'WHITES' has been fruit-less so I cannot be certain. Regards David

1st October 2007, 05:25 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	Hi David, Actually your thought on this piece having certain tulwar characteristics is interestingly more well placed than my original thought, and it does seem this could have some association with the British Raj in India. While military regulation was indeed very controlled in the weapons of rank and file, the officers often were given wide range in the weapons they wore. This was especially true in India, where officers often assumed many elements of Indian fashion and often carried hybridized weapons. The 'Whites' marking may well suggest one of the many outfitters that existed in both England and in India providing such weapons to both British officers, and in some cases, British gentry in India. Possibly this sword may have been intended for such instance. The decoration at the center of the crosspiece is quite interesting, and may offer some clues as you suggest. Swords like this are always exciting to research, you never know what mysteries might be revealed!!! The games afoot!!! All the best, Jim

2nd October 2007, 09:36 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Jim, thanks for your latest reply. I feel almost certain that this has (had)connections with India. Interestingly, there was a documentary recently shown, that showed the history of British involvement in India. It was very common that officers (during the early stages of Colonial rule) embraced the Indian way of life, often wearing the local attire , when 'out of uniform', some 'adopted Hindu/Islamic practices and a number took Indian brides. Many had a great 'appreciation' of Indian history/culture. But, much of this was 'hidden' ......it seems that British officials turned a 'blind eye'....and perhaps due to 'negative propaganda; the British public never knew. I would assume that it was in the interests of these officials that the British people continued to believe that India was a 'second class' society for political reasons. If the public had discovered the facts .....embarassing questions would have been asked of the government.