19th century Moro Barong? Comments please.

Bill M · 28th December 2006, 12:38 PM

I bought this barong from an ebay seller. The description is as follows:

"This auction is for a 19th century MORO sword BARONG swollen single edged heavy blade measuring 23" long in nice condition as in photos,good luck in your bidding."

I expressed concerns to the seller that the piece pictured below is niether Moro, Barong, nor 19th century. That it seems a made-for-export/tourist piece.

My biggest question: "IS THIS A LEGITIMATE PIECE OR JUST MADE FOR EXPORT?" Look at the side plates. Maybe this is legit and just a low-end piece?

The seller responded:

"hi bill not according to 2 leading edge weapon specialists in the uk,it was purchased at a leading militaria somerset auction,this is 100% original,please check again,we do not make mistakes ,our other ebay sites have over 10,000 positives on them,we have been selling blades for over 22 years,this piece is not a modern copy,regards simon."

I have asked for the names of these 'leading edge weapons specialists.'

I would very much like the comments of people of this Forum. I am purposely not mentioning the seller's name.

I am not looking for validation of my position, just your very frank comments whether negative or positive. Price was $338. Their pictures were not clear enough to see the details my pictures show.

Flavio · 28th December 2006, 12:52 PM

Bill, simply beautiful and very elegant!!! Congratulations, dear friend

Bill M · 28th December 2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Bill, simply beautiful and very elegant!!! Congratulations, dear friend

Look carefully

Flavio · 28th December 2006, 01:17 PM

Bill, i see an Adya katti, or maybe a Malabar knife, but i'm a little myopic....

Bill M · 28th December 2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Bill, i see an Adya katti, or maybe a Malabar knife, but i'm a little myopic....

Do the side plates seem correct?

katana · 28th December 2006, 03:23 PM

Hi Bill,
I am no expert....but my overall impression is ...it is not a tourist piece. How does it 'feel' in 'hand'......does the balance 'feel right'. The blade seems to have 'age' to it. The 'diagonal' marks/scratches are a little mysterious....but not all weapons were beautifully finished. I personally like it, is it the 'finish' that makes you suspect it is 'tourist'?

Dajak · 28th December 2006, 03:36 PM

Hi Bill he schould give your money back to me it s not old it is missing sign off wear

to me the edge s are to scharp

Ben

Bill M · 28th December 2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Bill,
I am no expert....but my overall impression is ...it is not a tourist piece. How does it 'feel' in 'hand'......does the balance 'feel right'. The blade seems to have 'age' to it. The 'diagonal' marks/scratches are a little mysterious....but not all weapons were beautifully finished. I personally like it, is it the 'finish' that makes you suspect it is 'tourist'?

Hi,

I first saw the side plates with thin, bent metal, and it looked like it was trying to be something it was not. That was what set me off.

Looks like some band is missing around the end of the pommel, but that is incidental. The blade does look good and well-made.

You just cannot judge across cultural boundaries. You have to know the culture and how they produced artifacts. For instance I think that the Japanese have some of the technologically greatest blades. A really great Tibetan blade compared to an average Japanese blade will not be as good in a direct metalwork to metalwork comparison. This is no bad reflection on the Tibetans. Not better or worse, just different.

And I value those differences. This is just one of the benefits of collecting, to get to know different cultures and peoples.

If I am comparing a piece from the Tanjore Armoury to this Malabar sword, there will be a huge difference. However if I am comparing this Malabar sword to a known Malalbar sword, and they look similar. If they both have these touristy looking side plates and are supposed to have them, then it is a good sword I bought.

As you all know, I collect in a wide diversity of areas, cultures and countries. Being able to display and gather comments from the huge variety of people on this Forum is wonderful for me.

By the comments being made here, I am revising my opinion of this piece and I heartily thank you for being there for me!

I let an outside business problem put me in a bad mood. This problem is being fixed.

katana · 28th December 2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Hi,

I first saw the side plates with thin, bent metal, and it looked like it was trying to be something it was not. That was what set me off.

Looks like some band is missing around the end of the pommel, but that is incidental. The blade does look good and well-made.

.

Hi Bill,
I do agree that the 'plates' appear thin. Looking at the pic you posted the rivet holding the plate looks like it was peened over again at some time in its life....the rivet has 'spread' to one side and the 'patina' of the plate (in close proximity) is 'bright' suggesting the 'hammer' blow occured more recently. Perhaps this was because it had loosened ? The plate also doesn't follow the contour of the blade (at certain areas) bearing in mind they are a softer metal than the steel I would expect them to match. This is because the plates would be 'roughly edged', then rivetted to the blade and then filed/worked to match the blade edges. In effect the blade would act as a template for the side plates. There is,also, the crease in the plate.
From this circumstantial evidence, I 'postulate' that perhaps the plate became loose, was damaged , then 'tidied up' and then re-rivetted with the original rivet. I also suspect, like you, that there was a band at the pommel end , perhaps this has seen some 'active duty'.......surely a ceremonial piece would have not have been used in such a way that it could be damaged? Unless, some idiot...later in the swords life.....decided to 'abuse' it.

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune.....All the best

David

VANDOO · 29th December 2006, 12:28 AM

THERE APPEARS TO BE PATINA TO THE WOOD AND THE BRASS ,THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF RECENT CLEANING TO THE PIECE. THE SIDE PLATES APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN PUSHED LOOSE BY RUST BUILDUP UNDER THE COPPER PLATES THAT IS PROBABLY WHY THE RIVET WAS STRUCK. tHE PLATES SHOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED THE RUST BUILDUP REMOVED AND THE PLATES REATTACHED BUT IF THAT HAD BEEN DONE IT WOULD HAVE MADE THE PIECE APPEAR NEWER OR LIKE IT HAD BEEN MEDDLED WITH. THESE PICES WERE NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE SO WOULD NOT USUALLY AQUIRE A LOT OF WEAR, THEY WERE OFTEN STORED AND NEGLECTED SO RUST COULD BUILD UP A SHARP BLADE WOULD BE EXPECTED ON A USABLE AUTHENTIC EXAMPLE. I WOULD SAY IT IS THE REAL DEAL NOT A HIGH END EXAMPLE BUT NOT THE LOWEST END EITHER PROBABLY WHAT A POORER VILLAGE COULD AFFORD. THE COMPARISON OF MORE COMMON PEOPLES CEREMONIAL ITEMS AND THOSE MADE FOR THE RICH ARE NOT FAIR AS THE COST OF MATERIALS AND QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP IS ON A DIFFERENT SCALE. I SUSPECT YOUR ITEM IS PROBABLY EARLY 1900'S JUST AS A GUESS NOT HAVING HANDLED IT.

THE PART THAT PUZZLES ME ABOUT THIS IS IF THE SELLER IS SUCH A WELL INFORMED DEALER HOW DID THEY MIS- IDENTIFY THE ITEM SO BADLY SHAME ON THEM!

Battara · 29th December 2006, 02:07 AM

Bill I see what you mean about the brass plates. I think the workmanship is lower on those. It may be real, but a lower quality.

spiral · 29th December 2006, 10:52 AM

when one goes back to early 20th century & Victorean times.

I dont think high quality work always means non tourist,

or indeed that rougher work equals tourist.

It might not be fancy work Bill but it looks a real ethnographic piece to me.

I like it.

Spiral

Bill M · 29th December 2006, 02:09 PM

Thanks for all the comments, folks. I'll keep this piece and enjoy it!

Hope that everyone has a great New Year!

28th December 2006, 12:38 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	19th century Moro Barong? Comments please. I bought this barong from an ebay seller. The description is as follows: "This auction is for a 19th century MORO sword BARONG swollen single edged heavy blade measuring 23" long in nice condition as in photos,good luck in your bidding." I expressed concerns to the seller that the piece pictured below is niether Moro, Barong, nor 19th century. That it seems a made-for-export/tourist piece. My biggest question: "IS THIS A LEGITIMATE PIECE OR JUST MADE FOR EXPORT?" Look at the side plates. Maybe this is legit and just a low-end piece? The seller responded: "hi bill not according to 2 leading edge weapon specialists in the uk,it was purchased at a leading militaria somerset auction,this is 100% original,please check again,we do not make mistakes ,our other ebay sites have over 10,000 positives on them,we have been selling blades for over 22 years,this piece is not a modern copy,regards simon." I have asked for the names of these 'leading edge weapons specialists.' I would very much like the comments of people of this Forum. I am purposely not mentioning the seller's name. I am not looking for validation of my position, just your very frank comments whether negative or positive. Price was $338. Their pictures were not clear enough to see the details my pictures show. Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 28th December 2006 at 01:41 PM.

28th December 2006, 12:52 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Bill, simply beautiful and very elegant!!! Congratulations, dear friend

28th December 2006, 01:17 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Bill, i see an Adya katti, or maybe a Malabar knife, but i'm a little myopic....

28th December 2006, 03:23 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, I am no expert....but my overall impression is ...it is not a tourist piece. How does it 'feel' in 'hand'......does the balance 'feel right'. The blade seems to have 'age' to it. The 'diagonal' marks/scratches are a little mysterious....but not all weapons were beautifully finished. I personally like it, is it the 'finish' that makes you suspect it is 'tourist'?

28th December 2006, 03:36 PM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill he schould give your money back to me it s not old it is missing sign off wear to me the edge s are to scharp Ben

29th December 2006, 12:28 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE APPEARS TO BE PATINA TO THE WOOD AND THE BRASS ,THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF RECENT CLEANING TO THE PIECE. THE SIDE PLATES APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN PUSHED LOOSE BY RUST BUILDUP UNDER THE COPPER PLATES THAT IS PROBABLY WHY THE RIVET WAS STRUCK. tHE PLATES SHOULD HAVE BEEN REMOVED THE RUST BUILDUP REMOVED AND THE PLATES REATTACHED BUT IF THAT HAD BEEN DONE IT WOULD HAVE MADE THE PIECE APPEAR NEWER OR LIKE IT HAD BEEN MEDDLED WITH. THESE PICES WERE NOT FOR EVERYDAY USE SO WOULD NOT USUALLY AQUIRE A LOT OF WEAR, THEY WERE OFTEN STORED AND NEGLECTED SO RUST COULD BUILD UP A SHARP BLADE WOULD BE EXPECTED ON A USABLE AUTHENTIC EXAMPLE. I WOULD SAY IT IS THE REAL DEAL NOT A HIGH END EXAMPLE BUT NOT THE LOWEST END EITHER PROBABLY WHAT A POORER VILLAGE COULD AFFORD. THE COMPARISON OF MORE COMMON PEOPLES CEREMONIAL ITEMS AND THOSE MADE FOR THE RICH ARE NOT FAIR AS THE COST OF MATERIALS AND QUALITY OF WORKMANSHIP IS ON A DIFFERENT SCALE. I SUSPECT YOUR ITEM IS PROBABLY EARLY 1900'S JUST AS A GUESS NOT HAVING HANDLED IT. THE PART THAT PUZZLES ME ABOUT THIS IS IF THE SELLER IS SUCH A WELL INFORMED DEALER HOW DID THEY MIS- IDENTIFY THE ITEM SO BADLY SHAME ON THEM!

29th December 2006, 02:07 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Bill I see what you mean about the brass plates. I think the workmanship is lower on those. It may be real, but a lower quality.

29th December 2006, 10:52 AM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	when one goes back to early 20th century & Victorean times. I dont think high quality work always means non tourist, or indeed that rougher work equals tourist. It might not be fancy work Bill but it looks a real ethnographic piece to me. I like it. Spiral

29th December 2006, 02:09 PM	#13
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks for all the comments, folks. I'll keep this piece and enjoy it! Hope that everyone has a great New Year!