My first Moro Kris stain attempt

Bill M · 3rd October 2006, 12:38 AM

The blade did not really look all that good after I finished polishing it, but some interesting patterns appeared when I wiped it with a mixture of vinegar and PCB (ciruit borad etchant).

Not so sure I like the colors, but some interesting patterns. What can I do to make this better?

Rick · 3rd October 2006, 12:45 AM

Hi Bill,

My personal opinion is that you should not mix two etchants together .
I have a suspicion that the blade you're working on might be monosteel .

Gt Obach · 3rd October 2006, 12:54 AM

i remember that awhile back there was a post on renew the pattern on these blades.... I believe it was something with arsenic trioxide and lime juice......
-- think thats the more traditional way?

I agree with Ric.... don't mix the acids..... acetic and ferric chloride may make it muddy... just the acetic should be fine and it may take abit....since it's a very weak acid... .

also... can you remove the handle..... don't want any acid on that...
& don't forget to neutralize it
- positively degrease it before any attempt at an etch...
- also... full emersion of blade in etchant is the best... ( at least from my experience )

take care
Greg

David · 3rd October 2006, 02:19 AM

Hi Greg. Arsenic and lime (warangan) is the traditional manner of staining Indonesian keris. It is not used, AFAIK to bring out patterns in Moro kris (it is not a fast rule, but the tendency on this forum is the spelling keris=Indonesian/kris=Moro).
Handles can be removed from Moro kris, but it is much more involved than it is with the Indo keris. Personally i would wrap plastic wrap really tightly around the hilt before working. Brushing on warm vinegar is pretty effective on kris. It is slow acting and easy to control. If you keep the vinegar moving you can get good, even results.
Full imersion is a good way to go, but not really necessary. I have also stained Indo keris with warangan and i use the brush method using a soft toothbrush. I have gotten very good results.
Your advice that the blades be degreased first and neutralized after is excellent advice indeed.

kai · 3rd October 2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

My personal opinion is that you should not mix two etchants together .

Yup, vinegar is sufficient for most kris. Fruit acids (undiluted natural juice) like lime or ananas also work but seem to result in warmer colored etching.

Quote:

I have a suspicion that the blade you're working on might be monosteel .

Seems pattern welded to me (no contrasting pamor material, of course).

Regards,
Kai

kai · 3rd October 2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Brushing on warm vinegar is pretty effective on kris. It is slow acting and easy to control. If you keep the vinegar moving you can get good, even results.
Full imersion is a good way to go, but not really necessary.

Yes. If the etching is not strong enough to your tastes, ramp up the temperature (vinegar and blade) first - that's usually sufficient for good results.

Regards,
Kai

Bill M · 3rd October 2006, 11:42 AM

Will see about getting the stain I just put on removed. Should I try polishing? Or something else that will chemically remove it?

As I am cleaning and polishing the blade it seems as if the kris enjoys this attention. Weird, huh?

Also likes, especially, to be stroked from the hilt to the tip. I have heard other people tell me thsi is the proper way to polish a kris, and it really seems right.

It is a similar feeling I get when petting my dogs. Feels good to me and feels good to them.

Well, I will gte on thos later. Got to get to work, now.

Thanks for the help. Will share smome more pictures tonight.

Gt Obach · 3rd October 2006, 12:26 PM

thank you David

my bad
glad you set me straight on the etch... (its definitely not my area as i'm a wootz man

)

however i really love the patternwelds on these kinds of blades..... i don't post on them because i'm very lost on the language and descriptions...

by the way... the blade looks to be made of bloom steel... i've hammer welded some steel from wrought iron (wrought being a processed bloom steel) ... and after it is etched, will have very similar surface pattern...... it is really apparent as you polish because you will notice small inclusions in the steel (which are silicous slags from the original bloom ).... this is not the same as welding flaws...

take care
Greg

ps... more pic's please

kai · 3rd October 2006, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Will see about getting the stain I just put on removed. Should I try polishing?

Yes, I'd go for slight repolishing - probably very little effort needed. This will result in crisp staining. (Make sure to remove any traces of oils/chemicals/whatever afterwards: a clean blade is a very decisive factor for etching as Greg already pointed out.)

Soaking a blade in cool vinegar often removes prior stains but, due to the more etched surface, can result in less "crisp" staining.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 3rd October 2006, 02:06 PM

Is it just me or do others think as well that this might be a really nice kris from one of the Lumad groups? From my observations, the carvings at the gangya area appear atypical for Moro designs. Especially the weird file work around the "elephant/eagle mouth" as well as the rather short & stubby other side of the gangya seem to be more consistent with other Lumad examples.

Could someone of the more knowledgeable folks comment on the hilt carvings, please? Any hints here?

BTW, Bill, can you ascertain that the gangya is separate?

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 4th October 2006, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Is it just me or do others think as well that this might be a really nice kris from one of the Lumad groups? From my observations, the carvings at the gangya area appear atypical for Moro designs. Especially the weird file work around the "elephant/eagle mouth" as well as the rather short & stubby other side of the gangya seem to be more consistent with other Lumad examples.

Regards,
Kai

Be nice for a smith to reply on this one. My guess is that "elephant" is usually worked into rough form by the smith & finished with file work. This one looks like it was made blank & the entire "elephant" is file work.

Bill M · 4th October 2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Is it just me or do others think as well that this might be a really nice kris from one of the Lumad groups? From my observations, the carvings at the gangya area appear atypical for Moro designs. Especially the weird file work around the "elephant/eagle mouth" as well as the rather short & stubby other side of the gangya seem to be more consistent with other Lumad examples.

Could someone of the more knowledgeable folks comment on the hilt carvings, please? Any hints here?

BTW, Bill, can you ascertain that the gangya is separate?

Regards,
Kai

Kia,

I would really like to know more about this piece. The ganga IS separate. I also have a scabbard that looks like the handle carving. Unfortunately the scabbard is brokena nd has pieces missing.

I did re-stain it tonight, but forgot about heating the blade first, so the stain did not work very well. Cleaned and neutralized it (baking sods?), rinsed and dried it carefully. Will work on it some more tomorrow night.

Bill

Bill M · 4th October 2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Be nice for a smith to reply on this one. My guess is that "elephant" is usually worked into rough form by the smith & finished with file work. This one looks like it was made blank & the entire "elephant" is file work.

Bill,

I will make some closeups of this area and post tomorrow night.

Manong

Nagawarrior · 4th October 2006, 01:34 AM

Bill,
I always dilute the PCB etchant 3 to 1 with distilled or pure filtered water. I find it works much better that way. If you put it on straight you get a weird hue on the blade. Then of course neutralize with baking soda.
Stephen

kai · 4th October 2006, 02:35 AM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

This one looks like it was made blank & the entire "elephant" is file work.

In this piece it's not only the atypical form but also the position (especially compared to the gangya separation line) as well as the proportions which seem to be off for Moro artisans. This may not be as obvious to bladesmiths from other tribes and the main reason for me guessing at a Lumad origin...

Regards,
Kai

kai · 4th October 2006, 02:37 AM

Hello Bill,

Thanks for confirming the separate gangya! In which direction is the grain of the gangya steel?

Quote:

I also have a scabbard that looks like the handle carving. Unfortunately the scabbard is brokena nd has pieces missing.

Please post it, too! May yield some more clues...

Regards,
Kai

Ferguson · 4th October 2006, 04:23 PM

Bill,
This is probably a stupid question, but are you sure the gangya is separate? In your (very good) pictures, it looks like it could just be an incised line. Either way, it's a fine piece!

Here's a pic of my carved hilt sundang with an attached gangya. Mine has sloppy engraving of the line, but a nice pattern welded blade, and nice wood.

Steve

David · 4th October 2006, 05:43 PM

Hi Bill. I am also having a problem seeing you gangya as seperate, espicial when i try to look closely at the point where the line meets the elephant trunk. It sure looks like an etched line to me. (scratches head)

Bill M · 4th October 2006, 06:35 PM

Upon close inspection, the gangya is not separate. Sure looked like it until I got really close. See pics.

Ferguson -- Looks like the hilt was made by the same guy or shop as mine.

Mine does seem to have a laminated blade. Still staining.

any other info you can tell me or want from me?

Ian · 4th October 2006, 06:39 PM

Hi Bill:

Looks like mid-20th C. or a little later Sulu work on the hilt and scabbard, probably Tausug.

Ian.

Battara · 4th October 2006, 08:34 PM

I agree with Ian and also say that the ganga is not separate, but incised.

Bill M · 4th October 2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Ian and also say that the ganga is not separate, but incised.

Well, this makes at least three of us that feel that way!

See my post of 1:35 pm today. Don't mean to be short. Having a bad day for other reasons. I will get better. Just need to move on down the salad bar...... make some other choices. Hmm, that would be a good tagline.!

3rd October 2006, 12:38 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	My first Moro Kris stain attempt The blade did not really look all that good after I finished polishing it, but some interesting patterns appeared when I wiped it with a mixture of vinegar and PCB (ciruit borad etchant). Not so sure I like the colors, but some interesting patterns. What can I do to make this better? Attached Images

3rd October 2006, 02:06 PM	#10
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,248	Lumad (Bagobo?) kris? Is it just me or do others think as well that this might be a really nice kris from one of the Lumad groups? From my observations, the carvings at the gangya area appear atypical for Moro designs. Especially the weird file work around the "elephant/eagle mouth" as well as the rather short & stubby other side of the gangya seem to be more consistent with other Lumad examples. Could someone of the more knowledgeable folks comment on the hilt carvings, please? Any hints here? BTW, Bill, can you ascertain that the gangya is separate? Regards, Kai

4th October 2006, 06:35 PM	#19
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Upon close inspection, the gangya is not separate. Sure looked like it until I got really close. See pics. Ferguson -- Looks like the hilt was made by the same guy or shop as mine. Mine does seem to have a laminated blade. Still staining. any other info you can tell me or want from me? Attached Images

3rd October 2006, 12:45 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,276	Hi Bill, My personal opinion is that you should not mix two etchants together . I have a suspicion that the blade you're working on might be monosteel .

3rd October 2006, 12:54 AM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i remember that awhile back there was a post on renew the pattern on these blades.... I believe it was something with arsenic trioxide and lime juice...... -- think thats the more traditional way? I agree with Ric.... don't mix the acids..... acetic and ferric chloride may make it muddy... just the acetic should be fine and it may take abit....since it's a very weak acid... . also... can you remove the handle..... don't want any acid on that... & don't forget to neutralize it - positively degrease it before any attempt at an etch... - also... full emersion of blade in etchant is the best... ( at least from my experience ) take care Greg

3rd October 2006, 02:19 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,066	Hi Greg. Arsenic and lime (warangan) is the traditional manner of staining Indonesian keris. It is not used, AFAIK to bring out patterns in Moro kris (it is not a fast rule, but the tendency on this forum is the spelling keris=Indonesian/kris=Moro). Handles can be removed from Moro kris, but it is much more involved than it is with the Indo keris. Personally i would wrap plastic wrap really tightly around the hilt before working. Brushing on warm vinegar is pretty effective on kris. It is slow acting and easy to control. If you keep the vinegar moving you can get good, even results. Full imersion is a good way to go, but not really necessary. I have also stained Indo keris with warangan and i use the brush method using a soft toothbrush. I have gotten very good results. Your advice that the blades be degreased first and neutralized after is excellent advice indeed.

3rd October 2006, 11:42 AM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Will see about getting the stain I just put on removed. Should I try polishing? Or something else that will chemically remove it? As I am cleaning and polishing the blade it seems as if the kris enjoys this attention. Weird, huh? Also likes, especially, to be stroked from the hilt to the tip. I have heard other people tell me thsi is the proper way to polish a kris, and it really seems right. It is a similar feeling I get when petting my dogs. Feels good to me and feels good to them. Well, I will gte on thos later. Got to get to work, now. Thanks for the help. Will share smome more pictures tonight.

3rd October 2006, 12:26 PM	#8
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	thank you David my bad glad you set me straight on the etch... (its definitely not my area as i'm a wootz man ) however i really love the patternwelds on these kinds of blades..... i don't post on them because i'm very lost on the language and descriptions... by the way... the blade looks to be made of bloom steel... i've hammer welded some steel from wrought iron (wrought being a processed bloom steel) ... and after it is etched, will have very similar surface pattern...... it is really apparent as you polish because you will notice small inclusions in the steel (which are silicous slags from the original bloom ).... this is not the same as welding flaws... take care Greg ps... more pic's please

4th October 2006, 01:34 AM	#14
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Bill, I always dilute the PCB etchant 3 to 1 with distilled or pure filtered water. I find it works much better that way. If you put it on straight you get a weird hue on the blade. Then of course neutralize with baking soda. Stephen

4th October 2006, 04:23 PM	#17
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Bill, This is probably a stupid question, but are you sure the gangya is separate? In your (very good) pictures, it looks like it could just be an incised line. Either way, it's a fine piece! Here's a pic of my carved hilt sundang with an attached gangya. Mine has sloppy engraving of the line, but a nice pattern welded blade, and nice wood. Steve

4th October 2006, 05:43 PM	#18
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,066	Hi Bill. I am also having a problem seeing you gangya as seperate, espicial when i try to look closely at the point where the line meets the elephant trunk. It sure looks like an etched line to me. (scratches head)

4th October 2006, 06:39 PM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,120	Hi Bill: Looks like mid-20th C. or a little later Sulu work on the hilt and scabbard, probably Tausug. Ian.

4th October 2006, 08:34 PM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,171	I agree with Ian and also say that the ganga is not separate, but incised.