Keris for comment

[Lew]

Greetings All

Don't ask me why I waste my time writing to these sellers on ebay Maybe it's just my good nature and the need to spread a bit of knowlege. I spotted this keris on ebay last week and wrote to the seller who is a power seller on ebay. I told him what I thought of his keris saying if he was a power seller this would effect his reputation on ebay for selling this type of product. Well I don't have to tell you I received a negative response from him. As you can plainly see his keris is a tourist quality Bali keris with an acid applied pamor. The ganya seems to be one piece the blade does not even look forged to shape it looks to be cut out from sheet steel. The seller gave me permission to post the keris on the forum I guess he does not want to hear that his keris is not the real deal. So please lets hear some opinions on this keris. Btw here is an exerpt of thhis email giving me permission to post.

You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item.



Lew

[kai]

What a waste of wood!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you, Lew, and the seller for the opportunity to comment in a public Forum on this item.

Regretably, the keris is a very specialised field of study and collecting. I have now been involved in this study for over 50 years, but I doubt that anything like this period of time would be required for somebody with even the most rudimentary knowledge of the keris to recognise exactly what we are looking at in respect of the item of which you have posted a picture.

I cannot in good conscience call this item a keris.
It is a keris-like object.
It is the type of thing that is sold to tourists as a souvenir of Bali.
It has the general form of a keris, but I believe the blade will be found to have been formed by being partially cut and partially forged from a piece of homogenous steel, the imitation pamor pattern has almost certainly been achieved by partially masking the blade with wax and then staining the exposed steel, the wax then being removed with boiling water.

The scabbard and handle appear to be of sono wood, and the quality of the carving is abysmal.This carving is the sort of thing that is done by young children who are just beginning to learn the craft.

This object cannot be dignified by calling it a keris.

It is a keris-like souvenir.

As a memento of a holiday in Bali, or as an ornament on the wall behind a bar, it has worth. As an item in a collection of keris or eastern edged weapons it has no place or value at all.

[Pusaka]

Hmmm…….The force is strong in this one

[David]

LOL!!!
Lew, i think i'm a bit like you. Sometimes when i contact these guys they actually are thankful because they didn't really know any better. Sometimes you get a guy like this, who really does know but wants to pretend otherwise. I actually had a rather detailed back and forth with this guy over this very keris the LAST time he tried to sell this piece of crap. He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room. He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.
Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best. To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

LOL!!! ... He basically assured me it was not only the real deal, but a very powerful JAVANESE keris according to his own knowledgeable Javanese friends. So powerful that when he took it out to show them the guy's wife had to leave the room.

Probably the wiser wife was thinking... what a piece of crap...

[QUOTE=David]He told me that he would bet me $4000 (to the charity of my choice) if i was correct, but of course he is not willing to put it to the test. I challenged him to post it here and i think it is funny that it found it's way here afterall.

Originally Posted by David

Yes, i think "keris-like object" desribes this item best.

A nicer and polite way of describing the item.

Originally Posted by David

To actually call it a keris is an insult to a great art and culture.

Precisely. If this is the quality of keris, I guess we'll be off collecting other stuffs. Fortunately, it is not. So here we are commenting and discussing, as usual.

[Lew]

Hi Guys

I think the seller must either be delusional,totally gullable or just down right full of roo dung or maybe this really what he sees when he looks his keris
They are almost identical you know I will be emailing a link to the seller so dave I think he had better get his check book ready I know a few good charities he can send the money to Btw Dave you must be the person who he is talking about in this emal.





For some inexplicable reason the posting of this auction seems to have attracted a stream of comments which would be laughable if they weren't so pathetic. (I'm guessing that you are either a colleague or perhaps the same person as some imbecile who keeps telling me that this 40+ year old authenticated keris is a fake, but who when challenged to put his money where his mouth is died like a pricked balloon). You have my permission to post a picture of this item wherever you wish. In the meantime, a local collector who DOES know what he is talking about is close to consummating purchase of this excellent item.








Lew

[David]

Yeah Lew, i am afraid i would be that very same "imbecile"
I should have taken hiom up on his wager, but i figured it was a waste of time and he would never pay in the end.
In his last post to me he writes:
You may recall that I made the following offer to you:
When the keris was still within my possession, I would send the physical item (at my expense) to any acknowledged expert, provided we both posted a bond (payable to charity) to ensure I wasn't wasting my time. You (predictably) chickened out, but now you want me to go and look at some blog that is no doubt heavily loaded with your friends and relations. You should ask yourself who am I more likely to believe - a native Indonesian who has a deep understanding of the keris and a knowledgeable collector, or some peanut who has read one or two books and who thinks a forged pattern is paint!! If you appraise yourself honestly you will realise that you have heavily negative credibility.

Alan, i think the "peanut" he is referring to is you.

[David]

Hey Lew, sorry, but i edited this guy's ID from your post. I think it is probably best that way.

[Rick]

Let's try to refrain from casting aspersions upon the Seller .
I know that this has been lively and entertaining; but one thing can often lead to another .
I would hate to see this escalate.

I gave up trying to educate Sellers some few years ago .

[David]

Rick is right. Let's keep it civil, even with this absent ebay dealer.
It's always a toss-up for me when i see inaccuracies on ebay whether or not i make contact. Sometimes the sellers have been very receptive, but then you get a response like this. I contacted another guy just recently about Moro weapons and it turns out that his dad has a storefont right across the river from me that i never knew existed loaded with Philippines blades. We had a great face to face and i showed them how to ID the newer stuff and they were very grateful and i now have a new source to hit every now and then. So sometimes it works out well for everyone.
I think this guy is beyond anyone's help and we should just move on.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm actually rather partial to peanuts, David. Probably eat about half a kilo a week of them, washed down with Perrier sometimes, other times with a decent Shiraz. I think in an emegency I could just about live on peanuts.Peanuts and Shiraz, not peanuts and Perrier. Gotta get your fruit somehow.

If this gentleman was referring to me, well, maybe he`s right. All those peanuts over so many years gotta have some sort effect.

I believe this gentleman is located in Perth.

I know a lady living near Perth who is a student of the keris and who has a reasonable level of knowledge.

There is also an Indonesian fellow who runs a business selling goloks and similar things that are made in Bandung. This fellow also knows a little bit about the keris.

If this seller truly wishes to learn what it is he is offering for sale, I dare say I could put him in touch with these people.

If he does not wish to learn, well perhaps he would be wise to beat a strategic retreat and wait a year or so before listing this object again.

[David]

Not big on peanuts myself, but i love a good shiraz.
Frankly i get the impression from our e-mails that the fellow really doesn't want to learn anything, but hopefully i am wrong about that. As for re-listing, he claims that he sold it to a "knowledgable" collector , but i have a sneaky suspicion that is not the case.

[A. G. Maisey]

Don`t be such a sceptic David.

He might have sold it to a knowledgeable collector.

I know absolutely nothing about Teddy Bears.

This knowledgeable collector he sold it to clearly knows absolutely nothing about keris.

We all have own area of expertise.

[David]

LOL!!!

[ignorant_aussie]

Against my better judgement I am visiting this rather incestuous site to dispel a few misconceptions.
Since posting the auction of a keris on ebay I have been called variously "gullable"(sic. - I guess that should be "gullible")); "an idiot" and a "con man"; and I feel it's time to respond.
Admittedly the images on my site were not brilliant; but they were certainly a lot clearer than the ones posted on this blog. However, based solely on the photograph I have received "expert" advice that the pamor pattern on the blade has been (1) painted on , or (2) etched on.
I am no metallurgist; but it seems to me that it would be extremely hard to fake layers of different metals that go intrinsically right through the blade, and whose borders can be clearly seen where the different layers meet the edge.
I don't profess to knowledge of kerises, but being somewhat familiar with the provenance of this item I will gladly buy all the ones of this quality that site members assure me can be purchased for $10.00. The workmanship in setting the different coloured sections of jahti wood is of a very high standard, and the carving of figures which I take to be Hindu is excellent.
This kris was brought back to Australia by a United Nations policeman over 40 years ago. (Other items he brought back include a carved bone blowpipe from Borneo which I feel sure your members will tell me is plastic, and a Dayak hair comb which no doubt was bought in Wal-Mart. There are also two statues which just cannot be found today; but again I'm sure I'll be informed that these were run up in a backstreet in Denpasar.)
I have shown this item to a native Indonesian whose brother is a respected dukun, and who confirms the authenticity. His guess is that the keris was confiscated, as no owner would part with a family one for mere money.
I have since sold the keris to a local collector who is extremely happy with his purchase.
So in the one corner we have an Indonesian who has a deep knowledge of the keris and who has inspected the physical item; and in the other we have someone whose credentials are unknown to me but who tells me on the basis of a photo that the intrinsic pattern has been painted on a single sheet of metal, and I have to decide which one to believe - gee whiz, that's a tough decision!!
I note in passing that someone has posted photos on this thread which have nothing to do with the item under discussion.
(Incidentally, the 'peanut' to whom I refer is someone who kept popping up on my ebay auctions like a bad cold).
In closing, I agree that Balinese copies are extant - of course they are; but the point that all you learned gentlemen seem to miss is "What are they copies of?" There have to be some originals that are themselves copied, and that is the case here.

[Ian]

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

[Rick]

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

[ignorant_aussie]

Originally Posted by Ian

The above thread by "ignorant_aussie" has passed through the Moderation Queue for new members and is listed here in fairness to the person who is the subject of some of the discussion here. In keeping with the Rules of this Forum, we expect that the discussion with "ignorant_aussie" will be respectful and free from personal attacks or counter attacks.

Ian.

My congratulations for having the editorial honesty to publish my thread 'in toto'.

[ignorant_aussie]

Originally Posted by Rick

You all have had your say concerning the item in question and now the Seller has had his.
People will believe what they want to believe; you don't educate anyone with a bludgeon.

I offer my personal apologies to the Gentleman for allowing this to happen in the Warung.
May we all profit in some way from this experience .

I am of a mind to close this thread unless someone here can give me a sound reason not to.

Anyone ?

Rick

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by ignorant_aussie

Apologies accepted. As with any discussion/debate your members have the right of rebuttal, and I welcome any meaningful comment.

All meaningful comment that could be made has been made.

If you choose to ignore the accumulated decades of knowledge in this forum then that is your affair Sir.

We bid you farewell .