New Sword Collector Seeking Input

[Seeker]

Hello all, this is my first post here. Allow me to introduce myself. I very recently became a sword collector by virtue of an unexpected inheritance. While I know very little about swords, I am no stranger to antiquarian artifact collecting, as I have collected, researched, and written about 19th century primarily American pocket watches for over forty years. I have written three books on that subject, all published by the National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors, two of which are currently in print.(Google Clint Geller, and you will find my two most recent books.)

A few months ago my long-time friend Walter passed away in his 90s with no close living relatives. His heirs, the daughters of his oldest childhood friend, also deceased, very generously thanked me for my small role in getting them in touch with the relevant authorities by giving me Walter's sword collection. I knew Walter had a sword collection, but I had never seen it. It is easy to understand Walter's interest in steel swords. He had been an avid fencer (his instructor was an Olympic silver medalist), he had a PhD in metallurgy from MIT, he had served as a 2nd Lieutenant in the US Army, and he was a student of military history.

I knew that Walter was no one's fool, so I figured he didn't assemble a bunch of junk. I was not dissapointed. From the dates of the newspapers in which several of his swords were wrapped, I could tell he had owned them since the 1970s. There were about 35 items including a large number of 18th century court and small swords, a tachi with lacquered wood scabbard. an Ottoman Memeluke scimitar, an 1822 Pattern British officer's sword, a French Napoleonic Cavalry sabre with scabbard, a Model 1860 US Cavalry sabre by C. Roby with scabbard and dated 1863 on the ricasso, and three rapiers.

This afternoon, I met with a sword expert - a mutual friend of a friend of mine who is the Curator of Collections at the Pittsburgh Soldiers & Sailors Hall & Museum. I decided to keep the three rapiers, the Civil War cavalry sabre, and two of the nicest small swords, and I sold the rest of the collection, about 30 pieces, to the gentleman I mentioned. The six swords I kept join the one I already owned - a Model 1852 US Naval Officer's sword bearing an 1861 presentation on its scabbard to a warrant officer on the USS Wachusett, a steam-sail frigate that was part of the Union's Atlantic Blockading Squadron. The inscription on the scabbard matches that on a silver Waltham pocket watch that I purchased in the same auction lot.

So those are my seven swords. Right now, I'd like to focus on the three rapiers, as I view these as the flaghsips of my small collection. The sword expert who examined them has confirmed my tentative identifications of the three swords as, respectively, (1) a German swept-hilt rapier, (2) an English pierced cup rapier, and (3) an Italian seven-ring rapier. I am a bit unsure about the seven-ring rapier, as the fastions are more elaborate than the examples I have seen pictures of, and they both curl forward (which I like, as I am left-handed). Also, the sword does not have running wolves engraved on the fuller, as I had read to expect. I'd appreciate opinions about these swords and your best guesses about their production dates. The English rapier appears to be from about 1650, but I am less certain about the other two dates. I have seen dates cited for seven-ring rapiers as anywhere from 1590 to the "second quarter of the 17th century." One source put the date of my style of German swept-hilt rapier at 1610, but I have seen other dates for it as well.

My apologies in advance if my images don't show the features you want to see.

[Seeker]

There may have been a limit that I was unaware of to the number of images I was able to attach to my OP. Here is addtional pix of the German rapier.

[Jim McDougall]

Seeker, welcome! and thank you for sharing these wonderful rapiers!
It saddens me when 'one of ours' departs, and it is terrifying to think of what will become of ones treasured weapons when the time comes, and without family or provisions, the outcome could be terrible.

This man, as you note, was clearly brilliant and discerning as reflected by the weapons he collected, and I am so glad these people placed these weapons with you. You have wisely retained important examples, and you are doing well to seek out the detailed descriptions and assessments of them.

The photos you provide are clear and detailed, but it is easier to discuss each in separate groups of images of each sword independently, and with dimensions blade lengths, any markings (your views of what they appear to say etc. as in person is better than photos naturally...flashback etc. distorts a lot).

All three of these seem rapiers of first half 17th c. It is hard to put finite dates as forms often carried notably later than the set parameters due to tradition and personal preferences. Also there was notable diffusion of influence.

With the 'seven bar' hilt, often termed 'squelette' (Fr. =skeleton) these are typically Italian or Spanish, but the arms and armor of these countries overlap of course. The style with the bars are most commonly seven bars, but can be 4 or 6. (Norman, 1980, p,141, hilt 68; Valentine 1969, #16 ).

What is unusual with this example is that the style of decoration in the base of the guard with the face etc. to me resembles that of English hilts of early to mid 17th. Also in Norman ("Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", ) the pommel form seems to be close to pommels 60,62 which are English, Dutch early-mid 17th c).
It seems almost as if this is a Dutch or English version of these distinct hilts, which would not be surprising, especially if Dutch with the Spanish presence there in these times.

Re: 'running wolf', these blade marks are simply a commonly used device used by Solingen (nee Passau) on blades, and do not apply distinctively to any particular maker or for that matter location of production. There are many variations and possibilities re: blade markings.

Naturally speculation, but a fair starting point, and as always more research may offer more perspective.

The other two very nice as well, but the 'squelette' caught my eye!

[Seeker]

Thank you very much, Sir, for your erudite reply. I had not heard the term "squelette" before. In French, it apparently meeans skeleton, or perhaps skeletal, to make it an adjective. Is the apply applied to all bar or ring style hilts, or only to the 7-ring hilt?

[werecow]

What is unusual with this example is that the style of decoration in the base of the guard with the face etc. to me resembles that of English hilts of early to mid 17th. Also in Norman ("Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", ) the pommel form seems to be close to pommels 60,62 which are English, Dutch early-mid 17th c).

That also fits in well with the other rapier with a dish hilt; looks like a cavalier hilt from that era and its motifs are very similar to those of mortuary swords from the English civil war (including the face on the knuckle bow and the decorations on the guard).

[Seeker]

Thank you for that, Werecow. I was aware of the connection between the heads chiseled into the cup (dish?) of the English rapier with mortuary swords, but I had completely failed to notice that same feature on the squelette rapier.

[Triarii]

Straight quillions on the swept hilt tend to indicate the early part of the C17th or late C16th. I have an Italian swept hilt with a similar form. After that they tend to curl in.
The English one is great - English mid C17th is my area of interest and I have not unlike that, but with slightly different quillion ends. They're both sort of what AVB Norman calls a Type 87, though they differ in details, which he says dates to 1635 to 1650.
Whichever one has the anchor symbol at the end of the fuller - that tends to indicate a German made blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Thank you very much, Sir, for your erudite reply. I had not heard the term "squelette" before. In French, it apparently meeans skeleton, or perhaps skeletal, to make it an adjective. Is the apply applied to all bar or ring style hilts, or only to the 7-ring hilt?

The term 'squelette' is of course a 'colloquial' term loosely applied and presumably is thus occasionally applied perhaps to some of the others of this form even with lesser number of rings. These kinds of terms typically fall into the realm of 'collectors terms' which often add a certain flair to descriptions but are often the bane of students of arms trying to research material.

The anchor is a widely familiar device which actually began usage in Spain, but was later copied in Solingen as they adopted the use of spurious Toledo makers marks during the demise of that center from about mid 17th c.
The Solingen versions IMO seem to have more elaborate crossbars etc, and the one on the English rapier resembles Spanish examples Ive seen from c. 1620 (Atocha shipwreck- Perez?).
Not to say no Solingen examples copied this form, just that most are with more elaborate details.
Toledo blades were highly desirable on these early English rapiers.

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone

Forgive my ignorance. I'm not a collector of edged weapons, but I'd be interested in the experts' opinions on the guard decoration. It's acid etched, file-cut, stamped, or perhaps engraved with burins or chisels (I don't see any details that would allow us to know how it was obtained). Thank you very much.

Sincerely,

[Seeker]

A lot of great information in these most recent posts. Thanks to everyone involved.

[Triarii]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello everyone

Forgive my ignorance. I'm not a collector of edged weapons, but I'd be interested in the experts' opinions on the guard decoration. It's acid etched, file-cut, stamped, or perhaps engraved with burins or chisels (I don't see any details that would allow us to know how it was obtained). Thank you very much.

Sincerely,

They're a combination of drilled, chiselled and filed.