Comments, please on Turkish Knife, made from a file

katana · 24th June 2006, 11:08 AM

I have posted this knife before, to ask if it had a specific name.

Now that I've received it, I've more questions than answers

I will assume that the blade is a reworked file, sharp and has a brass and silver (?) detailing. I know there have been a few 'file knives' posted, is this very common? Is it a better grade of steel compared to locally available steel.
Basically, any info on origin, function, age or general comments, gratefully received, thankyou.

ariel · 24th June 2006, 01:46 PM

The more I look at it, the more it reminds me of a Flyssa: the brass bolster, the carved wooden scabbard, the pommel etc.

katana · 24th June 2006, 02:09 PM

Thanks for your comments Ariel. I foolishly forgot the dimensions

Blade to bolster is 17.5cm (7'')
Blade width (at bolster) is 3cms (1 3/8 '')
overall length is approx. 29cm ( 11 1/2 '')

Blade is 4.5mm thick (spine just after bolster) and has distal taper, balance point is at mid point of the bolster. Looks as if the silver banding (on the scabbard) may have had some Arabic type script which is all but polished out

Rick · 24th June 2006, 04:14 PM

How about a picture of the entire piece both in and out of its scabbard .
I think it'll help get an idea of the "look" to help determine origin .
I'm leaning toward a Bichaq type of style .

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2006, 05:24 PM

Could it be a Kyhber knife or type of knife from areas where they are used? The hooked bit on the handle is seen on Indo/Pak/Afghan knives. The general form is all very similar, I think just a little more than North African. Then again perhaps not.

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2006, 06:21 PM

Been looking in the archive. This is from the Philippines surley? the wire binding is on many PI knives, also the handle form is very much like PI pieces.

katana · 24th June 2006, 06:27 PM

Here are pictures of the overall piece. These pictures give the impression that the scabbard is material covered, however it is lightly carved wood, which appears to be some sort of mahogany (close grained). The metal is silver (when tarnished parts wiped with clean white tissue, dark (almost black)
residue is left on it.

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2006, 06:37 PM

Perhaps it is not from PI

and does come from areas around Turkey. The use of a file and of silver on the scabbard suggest it is from an area where good steel to fashion new objects was at least hard to come by.

katana · 24th June 2006, 06:52 PM

This is seems strange that a file is forged for the blade and yet the knife is well made, as is the sheath.
It seems that the craftsmen were available but quality steel was not (at least when this knife was made). Unless there was a shortage of steel at that time, perhaps, due to certain factors say, war, trade embargo etc.
This knife is a bit of a puzzle

Edited addition,
I didn't see your last post Tim until I posted the above.....it seems that we are drawing similar conclusions

TVV · 24th June 2006, 07:40 PM

I am with Ariel on this one as far as there is obvious North African influence on this dagger. Look at the zig-zag motif on the scabbard for example.

katana · 24th June 2006, 08:52 PM

When I first saw this knife I was thinking 'Flysa, North Africa with Arabic influences (silver work).
Now I've got the knife I'm not so sure it is North African at all. I can see why Tim saw P.I. as a possible source, I thought the silver work had similar designs to some of the Dha's I've seen on this forum. But the file blade !!! have knives from Africa been found to made from files. Obviously the Africans are very adept to using what they have available, but, I mean, for the better quality weapons would they have used a file?

If the knife is North African, can I assume that the silver work would only be found with a 'quality' knife?

Rick · 24th June 2006, 09:09 PM

Katana , files are often used for knife blades ; the steel is quite hard .
The zig zag motif is fairly generic ; the pommel looks like it is slightly eared .
I've got only guesses to offer here ; that rosette on the pommel looks familiar but I can't place it .

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2006, 09:18 PM

I do not know why I do not go with North African, to me it just not really there. The rough and the fine mixed like that.

Perhaps we are looking at something that is from what was widely known in the west as Arabia? Good steel would have been less available than in Africa?

Tim Simmons · 24th June 2006, 09:32 PM

Look at the end of the scabbard. This is Yemen silver work. The dome with the pyramid of balls. I could show some examples of jewelery

.

Rick · 24th June 2006, 11:37 PM

This one's a real brain twister !
Where's Ham !?!

TVV · 25th June 2006, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Look at the end of the scabbard. This is Yemen silver work. The dome with the pyramid of balls. I could show some examples of jewelery

.

Are we even sure that the white metal is silver? I am not saying it is not, just that we should not jump to this conclusion too quickly.

katana · 25th June 2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Katana , files are often used for knife blades ; the steel is quite hard .
:

Sorry, I didn't explain properly. I know WHY files are used to make blades (from a metallury point of view, carbon content etc.)
I meant culturally I have not seen or heard of a good quality African knife manufactured from a file. IMHO a file is an important tool, to any metalworker. Sure, when its badly worn, ....heat it ,...beat it and make a chisel or knife. But to then use it as a blade in a knife such as this one seems odd to me

As for the silver, I am almost certain it is .....does anyone know a test (non destructive please

) so that I can confirm Silver or not.

kronckew · 25th June 2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

As for the silver, I am almost certain it is .....does anyone know a test (non destructive please

) so that I can confirm Silver or not.

Some people say silver has a distinctive smell, or taste. if you are one of the lucky few, compare it with a known piece of silver.

most reliable tests are unfortuneately destructive or corrosive. you might get the black residue tested tho....

however, you could always try the black residue on a known werewolf & see if he has an allergic reaction. if you personally were a werewolf, you'd be sick by now....

do a google on 'testing for silver', it brings up all kinds of suggestions.

ham · 25th June 2006, 07:30 PM

By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city.

When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself.

Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations.
Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form.
All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula.

With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot.

Ham

katana · 25th June 2006, 07:47 PM

Thankyou very much Ham, I certainly enjoyed your deductive reasoning .....like a certain character from the works of Conan Doyle

kronckew · 25th June 2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city.

When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself.

Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations.
Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form.
All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula.

With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot.

Ham

in other words, 'i don't know'

p.s. - still a purdy knife, even if you beat me out in the bidding.....

ham · 25th June 2006, 08:00 PM

If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again.

Ham

kronckew · 25th June 2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again.

Ham

there was an overwhelming amount of well presented information which was very informative, knowledgeable and germain, did not mean to sound facetious, but the ultimate conclusion is that the origins and history of the item are speculative and show the influences of a number of possible embellishments over it's life. we are left with likelyhoods, not certainties. it's still purdy.

t_c · 26th June 2006, 03:50 AM

The connection between the blade and the hilt reminds me of the bosnian knives often labeled as "Bosnian Fighting Knife" from the late 1800's - see Tirri page 168, fig 118 (top) - not the best pic though. Specifically the way the brass wraps the base of the edge. I'll try to post a pic - I'm an FNG so no promises this will work..... Anyways, my two cents is possibly Balkans or similar.

ham · 27th June 2006, 05:39 AM

The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling.

Ham

The Double D · 27th June 2006, 08:58 PM

Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine.

My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view.

Why do you think this is a file knife?

Surely not from these marks?

If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me.

Now these marks...

The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure?

The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file.

And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection

My a less educated and less articulate point of view.

katana · 27th June 2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me.

Now these marks...
The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure?

The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file.

.

Hi DD, thankyou for your input...the spine of the knife is effectively the thickest, and therefore the 'teeth' of the file are more obvious. The blade is ground,which tapers to the edge, this would remove the 'teeth' as the file is made thinner to form the cutting edge. The cross hatching on the spine is not the 'remains' of the file showing, it has been incised, probably with a fine chisel, as decoration. It can be difficult to analyse a blade from a photo...its easier for me.....its in my hand

I always welcome ideas, no matter how bizarre, strange or 'commonsense-icle', this is how things are learnt, not by repeating the same ideas but by challenging them. If the ideas are right they remain unchanged but if a new idea or thought upsets the 'apple cart'. The established idea has to be reviewed, altered or thrown away....... a sort of 'evolution of knowledge'
......... oops......just fallen off me soapbox

Tim Simmons · 27th June 2006, 09:44 PM

Do not forget that the cutting parts of the file are forged into the metal, these will stretch as the metal is worked. There will be remnants of file structure often as a scale pattern that can be anywhere on the blade unless ground off.

katana · 27th June 2006, 10:12 PM

I was reading about the forging process of a blade. During the processes of heating and cooling, the metals properties are altered. At one point of this process a blade would have the metallurgic properties of a file i.e. very hard and brittle. This is then reheated and cooled to 'soften' the blade to increase its ability to absorb blows (becomes less brittle and hardness is reduced). I can only assume that the file is annealed (made 'softer') to allow it to be forged without fracturing. If this is the case it would make sense that the teeth would be beaten into the surface of the metal and stretched.

The Double D · 27th June 2006, 11:58 PM

I tossed out my idea because of my background and having made a fair amount of tools from old files, including a pretty ugly knife or two but mostly chisels and scrapers. Forging does indeed kind of work the file marks in. But this knife appears more ground or filed to me than forged.

Can you tell if it is forged or ground. (edit--Well just reread your post and did say ground)

Would the method of manufacure point to it's origin? One culture annealing then grinding or filing and another forging?

24th June 2006, 11:08 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Comments, please on Turkish Knife, made from a file I have posted this knife before, to ask if it had a specific name. Now that I've received it, I've more questions than answers I will assume that the blade is a reworked file, sharp and has a brass and silver (?) detailing. I know there have been a few 'file knives' posted, is this very common? Is it a better grade of steel compared to locally available steel. Basically, any info on origin, function, age or general comments, gratefully received, thankyou. Attached Images

24th June 2006, 06:27 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Here are pictures of the overall piece. These pictures give the impression that the scabbard is material covered, however it is lightly carved wood, which appears to be some sort of mahogany (close grained). The metal is silver (when tarnished parts wiped with clean white tissue, dark (almost black) residue is left on it. Attached Images

24th June 2006, 11:37 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301	Puzzle This one's a real brain twister ! Where's Ham !?!

26th June 2006, 03:50 AM	#24
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	The connection between the blade and the hilt reminds me of the bosnian knives often labeled as "Bosnian Fighting Knife" from the late 1800's - see Tirri page 168, fig 118 (top) - not the best pic though. Specifically the way the brass wraps the base of the edge. I'll try to post a pic - I'm an FNG so no promises this will work..... Anyways, my two cents is possibly Balkans or similar. Attached Images

24th June 2006, 01:46 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The more I look at it, the more it reminds me of a Flyssa: the brass bolster, the carved wooden scabbard, the pommel etc.

24th June 2006, 02:09 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks for your comments Ariel. I foolishly forgot the dimensions Blade to bolster is 17.5cm (7'') Blade width (at bolster) is 3cms (1 3/8 '') overall length is approx. 29cm ( 11 1/2 '') Blade is 4.5mm thick (spine just after bolster) and has distal taper, balance point is at mid point of the bolster. Looks as if the silver banding (on the scabbard) may have had some Arabic type script which is all but polished out

24th June 2006, 04:14 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301	How about a picture of the entire piece both in and out of its scabbard . I think it'll help get an idea of the "look" to help determine origin . I'm leaning toward a Bichaq type of style .

24th June 2006, 05:24 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	Could it be a Kyhber knife or type of knife from areas where they are used? The hooked bit on the handle is seen on Indo/Pak/Afghan knives. The general form is all very similar, I think just a little more than North African. Then again perhaps not.

24th June 2006, 06:21 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	Been looking in the archive. This is from the Philippines surley? the wire binding is on many PI knives, also the handle form is very much like PI pieces.

24th June 2006, 06:37 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	Perhaps it is not from PI and does come from areas around Turkey. The use of a file and of silver on the scabbard suggest it is from an area where good steel to fashion new objects was at least hard to come by.

24th June 2006, 06:52 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	This is seems strange that a file is forged for the blade and yet the knife is well made, as is the sheath. It seems that the craftsmen were available but quality steel was not (at least when this knife was made). Unless there was a shortage of steel at that time, perhaps, due to certain factors say, war, trade embargo etc. This knife is a bit of a puzzle Edited addition, I didn't see your last post Tim until I posted the above.....it seems that we are drawing similar conclusions

24th June 2006, 07:40 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,644	I am with Ariel on this one as far as there is obvious North African influence on this dagger. Look at the zig-zag motif on the scabbard for example.

24th June 2006, 08:52 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	When I first saw this knife I was thinking 'Flysa, North Africa with Arabic influences (silver work). Now I've got the knife I'm not so sure it is North African at all. I can see why Tim saw P.I. as a possible source, I thought the silver work had similar designs to some of the Dha's I've seen on this forum. But the file blade !!! have knives from Africa been found to made from files. Obviously the Africans are very adept to using what they have available, but, I mean, for the better quality weapons would they have used a file? If the knife is North African, can I assume that the silver work would only be found with a 'quality' knife?

24th June 2006, 09:09 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,301	Katana , files are often used for knife blades ; the steel is quite hard . The zig zag motif is fairly generic ; the pommel looks like it is slightly eared . I've got only guesses to offer here ; that rosette on the pommel looks familiar but I can't place it .

24th June 2006, 09:18 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	I do not know why I do not go with North African, to me it just not really there. The rough and the fine mixed like that. Perhaps we are looking at something that is from what was widely known in the west as Arabia? Good steel would have been less available than in Africa?

24th June 2006, 09:32 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	Look at the end of the scabbard. This is Yemen silver work. The dome with the pyramid of balls. I could show some examples of jewelery .

25th June 2006, 07:30 PM	#19
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	By reading and rereading Homer's Iliad over a period of years, a German entrepreneur named Heinrich Schliemann found and excavated the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik in the latter 19th century. Both self-educated and self-financed, he performed a genuinely remarkable archeological feat-- yet in his eagerness, Schliemann dug right through Homeric Troy, to reveal several earlier levels of the ancient city. When considering an artifact, it is wise not to proceed with an end result in mind-- let the piece reveal itself. Considering the various elements of this dagger, it becomes clear that it is not a cohesive work. Rather, it is an agglomeration of alterations and additions. The fact that the blade is ground from a file is the least important matter in ascertaining its origin-- Britain exported good Birmingham files to Africa, the Middle East and all of Asia throughout the second half of the 19th century-- such items were traded and retraded to even farther geographical locations. Consider: form of grips-- generally Ottoman, yes. The faceted bolsters are brass, the grips are wooden-- since both appear intrinsic to the piece they are the place where one ought to begin. This was a humble piece to begin with, though reasonably well constructed. Blade is also modest though well-ground, and of Ottoman, not North African, form. All the rest is elaboration. The silver boss on the pommel is not Ottoman, rather it is Indian, probably Rajput as it is matrix-hammered. The wire wrap certainly is similar to work done by the Moros (Muslim Filipino indigenes-specialists kindly forgive the lack of specificity) but not necessarily exclusive to them. It can also be Arab.The sheath of wood has incised designs, typical of Algerian flyssa sheathes, yet the silver mounts are unusual in combination with it. They may well be Arab as has been observed above, but this again is not exclusive. Very similar work was produced in various parts of Indonesia. Is the sheath original to the dagger or is it a near fit which was associated with it? Finally, were these alterations made in the knife's working life or afterwards-- more recently? If the dagger and sheath and all the embellishments display a consistent patina, the dagger probably came from Anatolia and was then embellished and fitted with its silver-mounted sheath on the Arabian peninsula. With a piece like this, it is much easier to ascertain what it is not, than what it is. By ruling out possibilities, we are left with likelihoods. Observation, followed by deductive reasoning, take us where direct assumptions cannot. Ham

25th June 2006, 07:47 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thankyou very much Ham, I certainly enjoyed your deductive reasoning .....like a certain character from the works of Conan Doyle

25th June 2006, 08:00 PM	#22
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	If 'I don't know' is all you got from that, perhaps read it again. Ham

27th June 2006, 05:39 AM	#25
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	The point is that despite what has been written in this field, the literature is still nascent. For this reason some items defy precise identification. Coin collectors, stamp collectors, military patch collectors, badge, pin and medals collectors, doll collectors, jar collectors, beanie baby collectors et bloody al-- have the benefit of being able to look up a given item in a book and put a finger right on it, done and done-- stick it in a lucite box with a neatly lettered label and put it on the shelf. But in the case of ethnographic weapons, it is up to serious students to write that book. Every single effort, including this forum, contributes a little knowledge. This is the challenge which makes it so compelling. Ham

27th June 2006, 08:58 PM	#26
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Katana forgive me but I hijacked your picture and did some editing of it. The edits are now on my picture site and the bandwidth is mine. My point in doing this is offer a less educated and less articulate point of view. Why do you think this is a file knife? Surely not from these marks? If those were old file teeth they would taper and disappear from spine to cutting edge. They just appear to be tool or polishing marks to me. Now these marks... The heavy dark ones might be old teeth from some old crudely made rasp. The do appear to taper and fade...the cutting edge is on the right isn't it? But are we sure? The cross hatching on the spine doesn't make it a file. And if it is an old file, does that eliminate it's worthiness or does it point to a specific maker's technique and style who doesn't have access to a local steel supply house. Does it indicate a culture who lives where supply is limited and old tools are not discarded and replaced by a visit to Home Depot, but are instead used and reused however possible. Indeed a very worthy piece for any collection My a less educated and less articulate point of view.

27th June 2006, 09:44 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,813	Do not forget that the cutting parts of the file are forged into the metal, these will stretch as the metal is worked. There will be remnants of file structure often as a scale pattern that can be anywhere on the blade unless ground off.

27th June 2006, 10:12 PM	#29
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I was reading about the forging process of a blade. During the processes of heating and cooling, the metals properties are altered. At one point of this process a blade would have the metallurgic properties of a file i.e. very hard and brittle. This is then reheated and cooled to 'soften' the blade to increase its ability to absorb blows (becomes less brittle and hardness is reduced). I can only assume that the file is annealed (made 'softer') to allow it to be forged without fracturing. If this is the case it would make sense that the teeth would be beaten into the surface of the metal and stretched.

27th June 2006, 11:58 PM	#30
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	I tossed out my idea because of my background and having made a fair amount of tools from old files, including a pretty ugly knife or two but mostly chisels and scrapers. Forging does indeed kind of work the file marks in. But this knife appears more ground or filed to me than forged. Can you tell if it is forged or ground. (edit--Well just reread your post and did say ground) Would the method of manufacure point to it's origin? One culture annealing then grinding or filing and another forging?