Possible haquebut ball

[Marcus den toom]

This small limestone ball of 25mm in diameter was found at the Fraeylemaborg in the Netherlands, up north about 20Km from the german boarder.

In 1502 the Guelderian Wars broke out between the duke of Burgundy (Habsburg) and Karel van Gelre (Charles II, Duke of Guelders).

During this time, in on of the earliest battles, the Fraeylemaborg was attacked and taken for a short time.

This ball most likely dates back to 1500-1505.
A interesting piece of Dutch history and the prelude of the golden age and the 80 years war.

I also found a few people who found clotshot or in Dutch: loodbus kogel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles,_Duke_of_Guelders

[Matchlock]

(No post)

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Nice find, this one!

Are you sure, though, it actually consists of limestone? To me, its unusually smooth - and speckled! - surface rather points at a kind of Austrian marble, known to have been used to form cannon balls: the so-called Untersberger Marmor. It has been continually quarried at Untersberg/Salzburg, for about 2,000 years: from the Ancient Roman period up to the 21st century.

Apart from that, and from various excavations done on historic battleground sites, we have records of pug! balls used with both arquebuses, muskets and pistols, and from the 16th through the 19th centuries.

All the limestone balls I have seen, including a specimen in The Michael Trömner Collection (see attachment), show a markedly porous surface, which is characteristic for that material after being exposed to environmental and/or excavated conditions for five centuries. The surface of the limestone used for the architecture of Gothic cathedrals bears witness of the same phenomena.

Attached find images of characteristic limestone balls for guns.
The first measures ca. 40 mm in diameter, ca. 600 to 400 years old and most probably for a wall gun or a falconet, and was excavated in Regensburg, Bavaria, in 1879!
I also attached photos of the only known limestone grenade, and retaining its original fuse!

All items in The Michael Trömner Collection.
Please note that the scale is in cm.


For comparison, the last images depict five cannon balls made of Untersberger marble (Dorotheum sale, Vienna, 19 Feb 2014, lots 37 and 36)!


All photos, except where noted, copyrighted by Michael Trömner.


Best,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,

Thank you for your, as always, extesive answer
I bought this ball yesterday morning, so when it arrives i will make better pictures and hope to find out if it is limestone or marble... or some sort of other rock.

Here is a picture of the clod shot found in the Netherlands. They are dated as early as 1385, the year the castle was destroyed.

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


That clod shot incites me!
Right now that my computer man provided with a provisional email until Outlook will work again:
Please do email me that illustration and let me know whether it is the same group discussed in

Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens: Arms and Armour of Knights and Landsknechts, in the Netherlandish Army Museum.
Delft, 2010. ISBN 978-90-5972-413-6, pp. 334-9.

In the book, it says 1375, though ...


Please see top five attachments - and my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=clod+shot

The two last attachments depict 15th c. stone shot consisting of quartzite and black flint; Puype/Stevens, p. 332f.


Marcus, all considered, there seems to be a high probability that your item, too, consists of quartzite.



Thanks, and best,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,

Email has been send

That clod shot is very interesting indeed and not too uncommon at certain places here.

I hope to recieve that ball next week, quarzite or limestone... it will be one more important item for my growing collection

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,
and Nando,

My email program is on strike once more; all the mails I receive are without any text. I hope it will be fixed by the end of next week.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

I will resend you my last email by PM

[Marcus den toom]

I have recieved the ball and i weighted it, it came out on approximately 26 grams. I also measured the diameter and this is 2,9-3,0 cm.
So when calculating the volume we can use the 4/3 x Pi x R(Radius)^3 formula. This would be 14,137 cubic centimeters. The density of limestone is between 2,3-2,7 that of quartzite 2,6-2,8 and marble 2,4-2,7 gr/cm3.

The weight and diameter would sugest a material of 1,85 gr/cm3
This is a very pragmatic view and too hard on my brain at this time of day after a train journey of 6 hours or so...

Attached are pictures of this ball.

Best as always and sleep well my friends.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi,

These finds where send to me by a friend and metal detector fanatic. They look like clod shot but with a rounded or pointed end. Anyone a clue if my hunch is right?

They vary within the 23-26mm diameter range according to my friend.

[fernando]

Oh, if they are the real thing, i want one

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,



You are right, this is clod shot of unusually pointed form, probably 2nd half 14th c., and for wall guns/haquebuts.






http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=173741#post173741










Best,

Michl

[fernando]

Why all these continuous troubles with the texts of your posts, Michael ?
Have you tried writing with a regular (default) font, size and color ?

[Matchlock]

Well, Nando,


That's exactly what I have been trying to tell you for months:

My complete new Office 2013 is broken - WORD and Outlook email included ...
Nothing works out alright ...


Best,
Michl

[fernando]

But, why the need of Outlook and Word ?
Don't you write directly into the post window ... with regular font, size and color working by themselves ?

[Matchlock]

Hi, my dear friend Nando,


I write most of my posts using WORD, and then copy them here.
It's much easier that way editing and saving them.

So that's why.

Apart from that, I definitely need my Outlook email program to work correctly - more than three months after it was installed, it's still driving me crazy ...
After all, emailing has become my gate to the outside world, to my friends out there; to you ...


Best,
Michl

[fernando]

So sorry to insist but ...
Even knowing that your applications are out of order you don't temporarily post directly in here ?
... Risking frequent results as in post #12 ?
Is it all those recent texts, with large size fonts and alternate multicolor lettering, caused by your WORD malfunction ?
I envy your perseverance .

[Marcus den toom]

I understand Michl's position, seeing as he is contributing with more text and pictures than any of us. Typing within this forum is not very accurate when you typ something of over 2000 words Also the layout changes because the screen in which you typ is only half the width of the layout of the forum

Hopefully the problem can be fixed without having to buy a new PC or laptop.

I got even more pictures of the same person, sadly he is not willing to sell them at the moment. It is kind of a special thing among metal detector enthausiast to find a haquebut bullet. And this particular person has found quite a few in his "career" making him some sort of a king. Some of them even compose a collectors list of items still to be found


the measurments are written on the paper. "taps" means askew/tilted.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I understand Michl's position, seeing as he is contributing with more text and pictures than any of us. Typing within this forum is not very accurate when you typ something of over 2000 words Also the layout changes because the screen in which you typ is only half the width of the layout of the forum

Hopefully the problem can be fixed without having to buy a new PC or laptop.

C'mon Marcus, we are all persons of common sense. This has nothing to do with Michl's contribution intensity. If we know that our posts come out so awkward with the the exterior alternative resources we use, surely the wise idea is to apply the forum features. And the more 'peaceful' those are ... contents, fonts, colors and the like, the better they appear. The more importante we are, the more humble we may be; no need to call for attention when we are what we are, right ?
I for one, would hate to see my posts being nominated for the Guiness book of records.
Time we bring back some serenity to this whole issue, if i may

.

[Matchlock]

Hi, my dear friends Marcus and Nando,


First of all: THANKS for caring!

I feel like Marcus has got the better understanding of what situation I am in;

Secondly:

As Marcus correctly noticed, my output here seems to be unparalleled.
So please leave the way of posting up to me, 'cause I just gotta do it my way - and my way is the only way of doin' it.
Alright?
OK?


At 61, I've grown way too old for breakin' but I still feel way too young to be tamed!


Best,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Dear friends,

You both make a valid point. Nando, you are right about the possibility of just posting within the forum threads and Michl's is right about it beeing the way you prefer (are used to) will work best for that person.

I have noticed a continuing tenseness between the both of you and whatever it might have caused it i am possitively sure you don't want to further this crack between your friendship. It is not worth it so let's make amends please, because this thread which i started about a haquebut ball has turned into a whole ball of **** right now!!!

rather comment on the pictures in post 18
These are also from my friend who dug all his items up in the Dutch city of Gorichem. When the city had some mayor construction going on at the ramparts/modern day dike my friend had a great time finding these items.

The city of Gorichem build these ramparts in the late 13e century to protect themself from the neighbouring city's/states of Holland and Gelre. In the mid 14th century they reinforced these walls and build gates and towers. In 1382 they got the right of naming themselfs a independent city (with tax laws etc)(http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorinchem)

[fernando]

No tenseness intended, Marcus; just some points of view.
...Which occured in this thread by mere accident.
Sorry for that.