Query on maker's mark

[Billman]

In the V&A museum in London is a cooper's knife, known as a cochoir in France (see: http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/17380) This one has an acid etched blade, and is dated 1702. It also has a cast brass handle, similar to those found on certain swords.

The shape of the blade is typical of those from Alsace, a province of France which has also been part of Germany at various times. The writing on the blade is in German, but not in blacktype: it is a more legible common script, which suggest it is possibly not German in origin.

Most intriguingly, it appears to also have two maker's stamps, which could be the gallic cockeral (le coq gallois), a symbol used in France. It was used by Coulaux Frères, later Coulaux et Cie who took over the Klingenthal Manufacture of Arms (also in Alsace). However, the manufactury was not founded until 1733, and Coulax did not become involved until about 1830...

The Manufacture only made weapons (as far as I know), but Coulaux later diversified into edge tools and scythes.

So, if this tool is genuinely from 1702, who used the coq as a mark?? Does it correspond to any know bladesmiths from the period??

[Billman]

The handle appears to be in the shape of a lion, and is similar to that found on Bavarian swords 250 years later...

[fernando]

Just a curiosity that, when the rooster started to give its first steps into being a symbol for the French, in 1665, it appeared in medals chasing a lion, following the Roman legend (Plineus), in which the rooster crow chases the lion away. But this was turned into a two side joke by Luis XIV enemies (mainly the Dutch), who came out with a symbol in that, a (Batavian) lion chased a rooster away.
Maybe by 1702 the figure of a rooster was not 'mature' enough to be adopted as a means of French provenance by native artisans .

[Billman]

After the July Revolution of 1830 in France, Louis Philippe was crowned King of France. One of the things he did was replace the fleur de lis by a coq (rooster) as the emblem of the monarchy. Thus, for example, the hand guards on swords (e.g. the 1817 pattern épée) have the fleur de lis cast into (or soldered onto?) them pre 1833, and the coq post 1833 (although it looks more like an Imperial Eagle). Like the coq (if it is such??) on the V&A cochoir, it is facing to the left, although often the head is turned to the right.

The coq used by Coulaux after they took over the works in 1838 was similar, but facing to the right (the reverse of the coq(??) on the V&A tool).

I have contacted the textiles department of the museum of Glascow, who confirm the dress of the men and women etched into the design on the blade are consistent with those being worn c 1700, in particular the men's wigs and the woman's bonnet. This supports the date on the blade of 1702, and thus points to it being genuinely of this date, and not a later 'fake'...

The coq (??) thus indicates that although bearing German text, the blade well may have been made in France, probably in Alsace, but over 20 years before the Royal Arms Manufactury was established in Klingenthal.

[M ELEY]

I don't recognize the marks and don't wish to complicate the matter, but just to let you know that the lion hilt pic posted on top is not German, but Dutch, ca. 1680-1700, when the entire hilts were fashioned as lions. Is the hilt on yours presenting with just a lion-head pommel, or is the entire hilt in the form of a lion?
Any pics of the whole piece?

[Billman]

You can see the whole tool at http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/17380 - the brass lion handle (the complete lion, on its haunches, in the top - horizontal- image) is the one on the cochoir. If it is Dutch in origin, that would make the story even more complicated. I have never seen one of these tools from Holland, but people moved freely through northern France, Alsace, Germany, Belgium and Holland, especially when fleeing from religous persecution...

The swordsmiths of the Klingenthal Manufacture were recruited (poached??) from Solingen in Germany, so there is a good chance that smiths previously crossed borders (the people living in border regions were, and still are, usually bilingual, and often feel they do not belong to either country, but to the region)...

It is possible that the maker bought in a handle, or converted one from a Dutch sword, for this piece - normally cochoirs have a wooden handle, often with two ferrules... (see below)

Can you please post an image(s) of contemporay Dutch lion handles of a similar form???

P.S. I know very little of arms and weapons, I specialise in edged tools, so any help from the experts in this field/on this forum will be greatly appreciated.

[M ELEY]

Sorry, I'm not savvy enough to attach threads, so I brought it up again. It's the "old Dutch hanger' thread presently presented. The Dutch name for these swords, with their entire hilt being a crouching lion, is unpronouncable by me!! The item you posted seemed to have used the same type grip from one of these swords. Tehn again, perhaps the German creator just liked the form and used it from existing patterns-

[Billman]

This one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=dutch+hanger

It looks like the handle shown on the original (top) image is in two parts - the hilt and the cross part.. Note the arms appear in s different position, but the general appearance is very similar...

[Billman]

Juts did a search for 'leeuwengevesten' on the forum, curiously no hits - so went to Google..... All images are from Cornelius' post (ref above) so no further on, but have found another link: http://www.adviesoudewapens.nl/blankewapens.pdf a downloadable PDF file - fig 26 on page 43 shows a similar hilt.

[cornelistromp]

Dear Bob,

attached a response to your email inquiry.

the stamped mark is not a coq but a king bird, the symbol of the "gunmen" of hand and footbow guilds in Netherlands in the 16th century until now..

the Lionhilt in Dutch leeuwengevest;
the hilt with a grip, molded into the shape of a standing lion( sometimes holding a shield) was very popular in the second half of the 17th century in the Netherlands.
The text on the blade is in German but I strongly suspect that it is a Dutch tool with a (bit later) added German text.
probably a craftsman tool used to form the stock of various weapons for members of a guild.

best,
Jasper

[Billman]

Thanks for that - the tool is most certainly a cooper's knife - 'cochoir' in French (kuipermes??) - the single bevel, the blade shape, the deep fullering are all typical of certain patterns of this tool. Possibly the image of two coopers trussing a cask on the back of the blade are also a bit of a give away...

I have not found any reference to this tool in Holland, but have contacted Eric Waulput who has written a book on cooper's tool (Catalog Kuiper Gereedschaf) for help.

I have just found an image of a similar tool, dated from 1400 to 1500, in the Rotterdam Museum - it is listed as a meat cleaver, but so was the V&A tool, until I told them otherwise...

The Dutch and Belgium billhooks often have a straight blade, and they can be seen in images of carpenter's workshops, so it is likely they were also found in Dutch/Flemish/Belgium cooperages...

Images, below: top the V&A tool, bottom the Rotterdam tool....

[Billman]

The above is the first time I have seen both images together - the Rotterdam tool is most certainly also a cooper's tool...

I would like to see the other side, to see if it is flat or fullered like the V&A tool, and also to see if it has single bevel.

Query, is it really 1400 to 1500 as stated by the museum, or much later, i.e. 200 years, which would make it late 1600 early 1700's?????

[Billman]

Just found another one, sold in Germany as an 18th century Küfermesser,
(i.e. a cooper's knife)...