Persian sword?

[Hara_morin]

going to buy this sword, but never seen the hilt like this

[David]

hmmm….well neither have we….
A photograph might be helpful.

[Hara_morin]

sorry, pics added

[Jim McDougall]

North India, with 19th century Persian trade blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by Hara_morin

sorry, pics added

Thanks Hara…that always helps…

[Hara_morin]

Jim McDougall, thanks for your comment, i thought it is Afghan type hilt

[A.alnakkas]

Modern blade likely made yesterday. Its made in immitation of Persian trade blades. I have seen identical ones before on ebay but with a different hilt type.

The inscriptions are rubbish :-)

[ariel]

The blade does not look new to me. Its structure with 2 narrow fullers, complex wider fullers at the end and unusual pseudo-persian lion strangely reminds me of trade caucasian blades from Old Atagi. "Rubbish-y" inscription also hints at the same origin: no persian master would write rubbish in persian language, but caucasians did it all the time.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Hara_morin

Jim McDougall, thanks for your comment, i thought it is Afghan type hilt

Hi Hаrа_morin!

It's definitely not the type of Afghan Hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

You are most welcome Hara! and this is a most interesting sabre, as is your thought that it might be Afghan.
The parrot hilt, virtually identical but with variations in the floral motif, and with similar curled back knuckleguard are known from Gujerat (Pant, 1980, CXX) and classified as 17th century (probably later). These style hilts however had pretty much the standard tulwar hilt elements in their quillons and langet.

This one is quite unusual in apparently corresponding to European hilt style with the quillon terminal disc and the langet which both seem to reflect elements of the British M1796 light cavalry sabres. During the 19th century there was a great deal of hybridization of British and Indian swords.
Possibly this example may have been one of these. I have seen tulwar hilts with British blades (quite common) and other combinations.

As Ariel has noted, these Persian traded blades (many spuriously associated with Assad Adullah the famed maker) were indeed often duplicated in Ataghi (in Chechnya) and I believe other some other Caucasian locations. The channeled blade and the 'key hole' like device in the blade resembles some of these blades of c 1830s.

I think a very nice example, and a good example of these type blades in unusual variant form probably of around mid to late 19th century. I would suspect possibly some interesting connections to the British Raj in India.

Best regards,
Jim

[AJ1356]

It is interesting but not Persian, at first look I thought Indian. As I kept looking more and more, and try to make sense of the rubishy inscription, I think it might have been built to try and trick someone into thinking this is a Persian blade by Assadullah. Since there are parts of the inscription that could be mistaken as that. Interesting non the less. Could it be an older movie prop? Just saying that since I was watching Sinbad the Sailor today and they had lots of decent looking prop shamshirs and what not.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is interesting but not Persian, at first look I thought Indian. As I kept looking more and more, and try to make sense of the rubishy inscription, I think it might have been built to try and trick someone into thinking this is a Persian blade by Assadullah. Since there are parts of the inscription that could be mistaken as that. Interesting non the less. Could it be an older movie prop? Just saying that since I was watching Sinbad the Sailor today and they had lots of decent looking prop shamshirs and what not.

Hi AJ,
It would appear we crossed posts as I had just made some notes on this sabre in the previous post .
I think it is important to note that these trade blades were actually well made blades, and not intended necessarily to fool anyone. The Persian blades of this general form were also produced in Chechnya in the Caucusus, and the cartouches and allusions to Assad Allah were more to signify imbued quality.
A great reference is "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah by Oliver Pinchot, "Arms Collector", Vol 40, #1, Feb 2002.

I assure you this is not a movie prop from Sinbad movies!! LOL .
but those movies are indeed fun to watch. Gotta love those 'scimitars'!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[RSWORD]

In the last picture, if you look closely you can see that the blade is pattern welded and not wootz. And it seems to be a rather bold pattern weld. Would it be possible to get some good pictures of the pattern on the blade? From what I can see in that picture, the pattern weld is much more typical to India than the patterned blades you would expect from the Caucasus and not wootz as you would expect from a Persian trade blade.

[Oriental-Arms]

In my modest opinion, I agree with Alnakkas. Very late 20C. blade from India. The pattern welded steel is very similar to so many “Damascus” blades from India flooding the market.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

In the last picture, if you look closely you can see that the blade is pattern welded and not wootz. And it seems to be a rather bold pattern weld. Would it be possible to get some good pictures of the pattern on the blade? From what I can see in that picture, the pattern weld is much more typical to India than the patterned blades you would expect from the Caucasus and not wootz as you would expect from a Persian trade blade.

Excellent and astute observation Rick! I had not noticed that, but you are of course correct and that does led more credence to Lofty's powerfully direct note. In my usual optimism I had been more drawn to the potential of this being one of those Persian trade blades or possibly as Ariel noted, a Caucasian copy.
I had also not noticed that the tip of the blade is quite more distorted in shape than these type of Persian trade blades and the brass cartouches and devices are not only far more excessive in grouping but not like the Persian examples.
With Artzi's much respected opinion and concisely well placed note, along with the others I must agree that this is far more likely to be a product of India from 20th century.
I did enjoy my wistful trip into the British Raj though with my ideas inspired by this attractive example, as well as the images of the Sinbad movies AJ!

Even if this is 20th century product, it still seems quite well made and of more vintage than the kind of things out of Rajasthan in more recent years.

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Blade looks very clumsy & I would guess fairly heavy?

spiral

[Richard G]

I don't want to come across as a negative old fart, but wouldn't discount a recent Chinese fake.
Sorry
Richard

[ALEX]

I think before discussing any features, the clear distinction has to be made - it is not an antique sword. Not to offend any new swords collectors, I am just curious, does it really matter whether it is well made fake or not?

[Hara_morin]

thanks for your comments!

[VANDOO]

A WELL MADE FAKE (REPLICA ) IS ALWAYS MORE DESIRABLE AND VALUABLE THAN A POORLY MADE ONE.
THIS ONE APPEARS TO BE PUT TOGETHER FROM VARIOUS PARTS RATHER THAN MADE ALL IN ONE PIECE. THE HANDLE AND GAURD JUST DON'T SEEM TO FIT. THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE DAMASCUS BUT THE WRITING AND TIP ARE STRANGE. THERE ARE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE IN INDIA WHO COULD MAKE THIS BUT THEIR WORK IS USUALLY VERY GOOD AT TOP END AND VERY POOR AT THE BOTTOM. THIS ONE PUZZLES ME
IF THEY MADE IT IN CHINA WE WILL SEE MANY MORE LIKE IT ON EBAY.

[Tim Simmons]

I do not think the animal motif is a lion. It looks more like a leopard. There are leopards in the mountains of central Asia rather than lions .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Hara_morin

thanks for your comments!

Hara, thank you for being so gracious! That is a wonderful commodity here and much appreciated . I am actually a researcher and historian and no longer a collector, so I typically see things quite differently than many others.
Whether the sword is a reproduction or interpretation or not, I still look for the historic prototypes as I have described and try to look for redeeming aspects in an item even if it is not authentically antique. Naturally here we prefer actual antiquities, but you presented your sword in good faith.
I guess the key here is, if you like the item, congratulations, regardless of the tastes or opinions of others.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

A WELL MADE FAKE (REPLICA ) IS ALWAYS MORE DESIRABLE AND VALUABLE THAN A POORLY MADE ONE.

not always it all depends on collector and collection. there may be some who would not consider it nomatter how "valuable" or "desirable" it may be made, presented as or appeared to others. I, for instance, consider the blade to be a core - most important element, and the rest, if done/restored properly - reasonably acceptable. but if the blade is not authentic, it'd not matter if the rest is. and the opinions will vary.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ALEX

not always I, for instance, consider the blade to be a core - most important element, and the rest, if done/restored properly - reasonably acceptable. but if the blade is not authentic, it'd not matter if the rest is. and the opinions will vary.

That's my exact view point as well & one that historically matches many swords from many cultures as well. Arab, Indian, Nepali & Japanese to name but 4.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

A few questions about this sword. Not my sort of thing but elements interest me. Can it be confirmed that the script is nonsense? I could have a suspicion that this sword could be pre Soviet Kazakhstan which would be 20th century. The form and importance of leopard iconography fits with a very late 20th century sword colleagues and I made for the then new Kazakhstan parliament. The leopard was stressed as most important. There is something about the sensitivity of the leopard motif and more that makes me question the Indian fakery assumptions.



.

[ariel]

It is difficult to be certain without handling the sword, but...
The blade appears to be well made, heavy, and carrying some signs of wear and tear ( even pitting). Hara Morin, what is the quality of steel?
The thin lateral fullers are hand made, cut out somewhat unevenly. The inscriptions and cartouches are hand carved, not cheaply etched.
The distal fullering is reminiscent of some Persian blades : see, for example, Figiel's catalogue, #2033, as well as its Amuzgi ( not Atagi, as mentioned earlier, sorry, I was inattentive) imitation from the Astvatsaturyan's book on caucasian weapons.The tip is reminiscent of the Indo-Persian Gaddara ( see Pant) as well as the above-mentioned Figiel's sword. The language of the inscription is uncertain, thus we cannot presently call it "nonsensical". Perhaps it is, but don't we need stronger data before passing a verdict?

The number of cartouches and other symbols seems to be unusual, but there are plenty unusual swords from the region. Moreover, there are old Indian/Persian swords with more than "traditional two" symbols/cartouches.

With all due respect for Artzi's opinion, I cannot see much similarity between the damascus pattern here and the routine, mass-produced " bird's eye" on the contemporary Indian fakes.



A colleague from a Russian forum claimed that he saw an almost identical one bought by his friend in S. Pakistan without even a slightest pretense on the part of the seller to call it antique. If true ( and I would love to see it) it would be a very strong argument. Had anybody here saw its twins?

I am not rooting for this sword, and opinions of many members here are largely in favor of its recent production. So be it, if it is true. But if it is a fake, it is one of the most labor-intense fakes I have seen.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by ariel

But if it is a fake, it is one of the most labor-intense fakes I have seen.

There are much, much better copies floating around People just get carried away by "features" and "references", they assume the origin based on likelihood, appearance and how well the sword is made, not where and when Of course they look like well known book swords, this is what the artists use as a template!
I have seen similar swords years ago, with identical stamps and pattern. As Ariel mentioned, this one is above average (relatively speaking), but I bet the blade is stiff and not bendable. Hara, can you confirm it please. How does the blade feel in hands?
Attached is another example of recent Indian blade with imitation (acid/hand mix) cartouche, multiple fullers and even a forge defect. Needles to say, this is far from much better quality copies that often employ elaborate gold inlays and scripts.

[Hara_morin]

i have not this sword in my hands, i see only these pics