"jaws" or " eyelashes" markings on Arabian/Indian blades

ariel · 8th December 2012, 08:52 PM

We are all familiar with these famous Genoese markings. They were widely exported to the "Orient" In the 19th century, and Daghestani masters from Amuzgi started exporting them with their identical ( imitated) marking, locally known as Gurda ( Gorda), to the Arab world ( as per Elgood). We still see them there occasionally. They were also popular in India ( origin of import unknown to me).

My question: was there any specific name for this brand in Aravia and India? Did not only Daghestani blades, but their local name as well, i.e. Gurda, appear in the countries of destination?
Many thanks for any info.

Jim McDougall · 12th December 2012, 11:30 PM

An excellent topic, and one familiar to most collectors of swords, but seldom ever pursued beyond the aging assumptions about these distinctive arc designs. It seems that these originated probably in North Italy and were most likely some sort of guild device rather than makers mark. While the arcs are typically paired in opposed position, often dentated and often with triple dots at end of each arc in the most familiar arrangement, there seem to be a wide range of variations.
These marks were often thought to be Genoan, possibly because of that city name with the marks in many cases on early blades. Whatever the case the marks soon became duplicated in Styrian and German centers, where they were used in conjunction with numerous other marks and sometimes terms or names.

As these marks became used in these centers, the trade blades exported by them often carried these marks in the most familiar configuration, and by implication of course suggested imbued quality and power in the blades bearing them. These were the blades which often became duplicated on native made blades in the various cultural spheres entered such as the Caucusus, India, Asia and North Africa.

As noted, in the Caucusus blades bearing these type marks became known as 'gurda', denoting the character of the blade, not the marking itself. As far as has been determined and to my knowledge, the exact meaning of the term is unclear but essentially means 'good blade' or to that effect. There are other terms used in these regions for blades with other markings, but those also remain unclear in etymology.

In India, where these so called 'sickle marks' occurred often on trade blades used by the Mahrattas, later others, the general and oft used term 'firangi' is applied, again to the blade, not the marking.

In North Africa there are some descriptive terms used for various markings from Europe on trade blades transliterated into native perception and parlance, however I am not familiar with any particular term for these dentated arc markings. Again, there are cases where a particular type of blade is designated with a term of classification, but only a few cases where marks are specifically termed.

As we have discovered over the years here, there are many instances of terms for various weapon forms being conflicting, much of this due to semantics, transliteration and other misconstrued application. I think if there were terms used for a mark as widely known as the 'sickle' mark (with other terms used even in European references) in other cultures, it would be difficult to specifically identify. This is compounded by the fact that like other imported markings, these were simply implied imbuements regarded the blade itself, and the marking not specifically interpreted.

In most reading I have done on classification of blades, particularly in Islamic instances, swords are named or classified according to places where the blade is from, maker, or even where the steel is from as well as the characteristics of the blade. In Solingen while the names on blades are well known, it seems that there were classifications where renowned names of makers became a kind of trademark blade type for specific markets.

ariel · 13th December 2012, 12:50 AM

Thanks, Jim!
Caucasians, apparently, had several kinds of Gorda ( Gurda is a russian modification), but the appearance and the meaning of those are debatable.
Gorda Majjar likely ( perhaps?) comes from the ancient Khazar/ Golden Horde town Majjar ( any relation to Islamic Central Asian Mazar ,- sanctuary, burial place? Like Mazar-i-Sharif?). Then there is Gorda Assel ( ancient, apparently, but the meaning? "As" or "asil" locally means Large, Noble, or is it coming from the ancient Ases, local tribe?).
Gorda El Murza: after some person?

That's all I learned on the Russian Forum from extremely educated and knowledgeable colleagues.

With time, blades with this mark acquired a life and a reputation of their own: one could say " I have a real Gorda", and everybody knew what he was talking about.

I just wanted to know whether a somewhat similar process and attitude were applicable to the blades with this mark in other cultures. After all, the Arabs referred to their best knives as "Rodgers" irrespective of their manufacturing source.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2012, 03:29 AM

Hi Ariel,
I knew you already knew most of this stuff, especially on the Caucasian names, but I wanted to include overview for those out there reading.
It really would be interesting to learn some of the more colloquial terms used in local parlances in these various cultures for certain weapon forms and blades based on these kinds of associations.
The term 'Rodgers' used by the Arabs I had not heard of, but of course refers to the famed Sheffield maker. It seems funny that so many of the prevalent 'Bowie' knives here were made in Sheffield.
I do know that many of the German blades were referred to as 'Alamain' in India. It seems Elgood mentions blades termed 'mayyar' or to the effect of Magyar for the Hungarian imports.

Hopefully some of our readers in the countries noted might be aware of some terms used to describe these 'sickle' marked blades.
Really is a great topic!!!

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th December 2012, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

We are all familiar with these famous Genoese markings. They were widely exported to the "Orient" In the 19th century, and Daghestani masters from Amuzgi started exporting them with their identical ( imitated) marking, locally known as Gurda ( Gorda), to the Arab world ( as per Elgood). We still see them there occasionally. They were also popular in India ( origin of import unknown to me).

My question: was there any specific name for this brand in Aravia and India? Did not only Daghestani blades, but their local name as well, i.e. Gurda, appear in the countries of destination?
Many thanks for any info.

Salaams Ariel, As always with weapons of this region I advise caution since the marks which are described throughout Forum variously as Gurda, Eyelash, Sickle, Hogs Back are usually struck locally as has been my experience with most other blade marks on Omani swords. For a Red Sea/Arabian hogs back example see #1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hogs+back
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th December 2012, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

We are all familiar with these famous Genoese markings. They were widely exported to the "Orient" In the 19th century, and Daghestani masters from Amuzgi started exporting them with their identical ( imitated) marking, locally known as Gurda ( Gorda), to the Arab world ( as per Elgood). We still see them there occasionally. They were also popular in India ( origin of import unknown to me).

My question: was there any specific name for this brand in Aravia and India? Did not only Daghestani blades, but their local name as well, i.e. Gurda, appear in the countries of destination?
Many thanks for any info.

Salaams Ariel ~ http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16083 has a good hogsback duo... #1.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

8th December 2012, 08:52 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"jaws" or " eyelashes" markings on Arabian/Indian blades We are all familiar with these famous Genoese markings. They were widely exported to the "Orient" In the 19th century, and Daghestani masters from Amuzgi started exporting them with their identical ( imitated) marking, locally known as Gurda ( Gorda), to the Arab world ( as per Elgood). We still see them there occasionally. They were also popular in India ( origin of import unknown to me). My question: was there any specific name for this brand in Aravia and India? Did not only Daghestani blades, but their local name as well, i.e. Gurda, appear in the countries of destination? Many thanks for any info.

12th December 2012, 11:30 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	An excellent topic, and one familiar to most collectors of swords, but seldom ever pursued beyond the aging assumptions about these distinctive arc designs. It seems that these originated probably in North Italy and were most likely some sort of guild device rather than makers mark. While the arcs are typically paired in opposed position, often dentated and often with triple dots at end of each arc in the most familiar arrangement, there seem to be a wide range of variations. These marks were often thought to be Genoan, possibly because of that city name with the marks in many cases on early blades. Whatever the case the marks soon became duplicated in Styrian and German centers, where they were used in conjunction with numerous other marks and sometimes terms or names. As these marks became used in these centers, the trade blades exported by them often carried these marks in the most familiar configuration, and by implication of course suggested imbued quality and power in the blades bearing them. These were the blades which often became duplicated on native made blades in the various cultural spheres entered such as the Caucusus, India, Asia and North Africa. As noted, in the Caucusus blades bearing these type marks became known as 'gurda', denoting the character of the blade, not the marking itself. As far as has been determined and to my knowledge, the exact meaning of the term is unclear but essentially means 'good blade' or to that effect. There are other terms used in these regions for blades with other markings, but those also remain unclear in etymology. In India, where these so called 'sickle marks' occurred often on trade blades used by the Mahrattas, later others, the general and oft used term 'firangi' is applied, again to the blade, not the marking. In North Africa there are some descriptive terms used for various markings from Europe on trade blades transliterated into native perception and parlance, however I am not familiar with any particular term for these dentated arc markings. Again, there are cases where a particular type of blade is designated with a term of classification, but only a few cases where marks are specifically termed. As we have discovered over the years here, there are many instances of terms for various weapon forms being conflicting, much of this due to semantics, transliteration and other misconstrued application. I think if there were terms used for a mark as widely known as the 'sickle' mark (with other terms used even in European references) in other cultures, it would be difficult to specifically identify. This is compounded by the fact that like other imported markings, these were simply implied imbuements regarded the blade itself, and the marking not specifically interpreted. In most reading I have done on classification of blades, particularly in Islamic instances, swords are named or classified according to places where the blade is from, maker, or even where the steel is from as well as the characteristics of the blade. In Solingen while the names on blades are well known, it seems that there were classifications where renowned names of makers became a kind of trademark blade type for specific markets.

13th December 2012, 12:50 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks, Jim! Caucasians, apparently, had several kinds of Gorda ( Gurda is a russian modification), but the appearance and the meaning of those are debatable. Gorda Majjar likely ( perhaps?) comes from the ancient Khazar/ Golden Horde town Majjar ( any relation to Islamic Central Asian Mazar ,- sanctuary, burial place? Like Mazar-i-Sharif?). Then there is Gorda Assel ( ancient, apparently, but the meaning? "As" or "asil" locally means Large, Noble, or is it coming from the ancient Ases, local tribe?). Gorda El Murza: after some person? That's all I learned on the Russian Forum from extremely educated and knowledgeable colleagues. With time, blades with this mark acquired a life and a reputation of their own: one could say " I have a real Gorda", and everybody knew what he was talking about. I just wanted to know whether a somewhat similar process and attitude were applicable to the blades with this mark in other cultures. After all, the Arabs referred to their best knives as "Rodgers" irrespective of their manufacturing source.

13th December 2012, 03:29 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Hi Ariel, I knew you already knew most of this stuff, especially on the Caucasian names, but I wanted to include overview for those out there reading. It really would be interesting to learn some of the more colloquial terms used in local parlances in these various cultures for certain weapon forms and blades based on these kinds of associations. The term 'Rodgers' used by the Arabs I had not heard of, but of course refers to the famed Sheffield maker. It seems funny that so many of the prevalent 'Bowie' knives here were made in Sheffield. I do know that many of the German blades were referred to as 'Alamain' in India. It seems Elgood mentions blades termed 'mayyar' or to the effect of Magyar for the Hungarian imports. Hopefully some of our readers in the countries noted might be aware of some terms used to describe these 'sickle' marked blades. Really is a great topic!!! Best regards, Jim