![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
I am trying to get some help identifying what part of the world this small matchlock may have come from. The owner says it is about 24cm long but has no clue as to were it may have been made. To me it has the look of some matchlock rifles from India that I have seen, any thoughts?
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
|
![]()
It is in the Indo-Persian "Torador" style. Have never seen one this small before. Very cool!
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
|
![]()
Yup it's an Indian Torador of usual form, just really really small.
Very nice indeed! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
Thanks for the answers, I have searched every were but I can not find an image of another torador pistol.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
|
![]()
I doubt you will find a similar weapon. Oddities are hard to find on the internet. I've only see a very few carbine length toradors. No pistols. Extremely nice piece.
Last edited by David; 21st July 2012 at 01:22 PM. Reason: inappropriate inquiry about sale |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
|
![]()
I wouldn't call it a pistol because it has a stock not a grip. I'd liken it to the coach guns and the like.
I've had a small 'carbine' Torador before and I've seen very 'slightly' proportioned small ones described as for children. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
Hi Estcrh. That is a very cool gun. As others mentioned, Indian Toridor for sure. And, not cut down. This gun was made this short. Yes, more a coach style gun than a pistol. This is the first and only one I have ever seen. A very unusual and interesting piece. Wish I owned it.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
|
![]()
Hate to be argumentative guys, but at 24CM/9 1/2", I think this would be considered a pistol. Many pistols, don't have pronounced curves to the stock. Also, carbines can be fired from the shoulder.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
|
![]() Quote:
LOL, I hadn't realised just HOW SMALL it is. I guess as it could certainly be fired one handed at that size we can call it a pistol? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
Hi Trench. WOW!! 9 1/2" is really small. Yes, more pistol size. I've seen Japanese matchlock pistol variations, but this is the first Toridor I've ever seen. Never even seen a picture of one. What a great find. I'm envious.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
Well I have given up trying to find anything like this, I cant believe it is the only one in the world, there must be others in collections etc. Since it is so rare I got some additional images and the exact measurements, it is supposedly 17th century but I am not sure how this is determined, length 25cm/9.8in, caliber 14 mm/0.55 in.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Sorry for the impertinence, estcrh
![]() Have you thoroughly checked both backsight and priming pan fixation... and the breech plug area ? Are you sure the barrel was not cut down ? Sure this is a 'customized' gun. The point is : is it a modified toradar or was it born like that ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
|
![]()
SALAAMS ALL~ Nice looking weapon. A lot of long barrels blew at the first weld caused by the use of too much gunpowder.(two shown below of the arab long barrel abu futtila type) I suspect that a number of these blown barrels were used as essentially "sawn off weapons" much in the same way that snapped swords were re used in Indian bladed weapons. I think the rear sight gives the game away and the butt which is a Torrador cut back. To me this seems to be a recycled cannon end with a re cut/ modified butt and a new foresight button. You would think that more of this design would be seen...
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]()
Fernando, thanks for the thoughts, I have not seen the gun in person but hopefully I will have a chance, your mention of the breech plug is interesting. I have seen several Japanese matchlock breech plugs but I could not find any torador breech plug images online, do you know of any? If and when I do get a chance to see this gun I might be able to take it apart and photograph it and try to determine if it was originally created as a pistol.
Ibrahiim, you may be right about the barrel being modified from a larger one but the fact that there is a rear sight does not necessarily mean it is a cut down barrel. Since there are no other images so far of another torador pistol to compare this one to all I can say is that all Japanese matchlock pistols I have seen including the very small ones have a rear sight and these were made as pistols for sure. I think the images I posted are misleading, from the size given I do not think the stock could be cut/ modified from a larger torador, this would be a really tiny pistol, the type you could hide in a boot etc. If I get an opportunity I will try to take a picture of this pistol next to a full size torador for comparison. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,069
|
![]()
The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread.
Toradors seem to have been made in all sizes, so I find nothing odd in a pistol sized one, and they seem to have always been in this profile as well. So I would say, unusual but not unique. G.C.Stone illustrates a couple of Turkish and Persian "pistols" with this stock configuration, but with Miquelet locks rather than match. I remember a reference from somewhere that these were fired from (butted against) the thigh on horseback, rather than with an extended arm like a western pistol. Really only handling would tell whether it was born as a pistol or retrofitted from a damaged barrel....and the latter would still be in keeping with it being a genuine piece. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
Hi Estcrh. I have looked everywhere to find photos of a Toridor barrel with the breech plug removed. No luck. Here's a photo of my Japanese Matchlock barrel with the breechplug removed. This is an original I shoot. But, I've never seen a Toridor barrel even removed from a gun to inspect the breech area. However, stay tuned, as I plan on removing the barrel from my Toridor to see the breech assembly. Like you, I have always been curious to see what the breech plug and the interior of the barrel look like at the breech end. I probably won't be able to do this till the end of the year. But I will take photos as I go along and Post on the Forum.
The Toridor "pistol" above still looks like it was made that way. It just does not look like a cut-down to me. ![]() David: I have always felt the same as your comment about the breech plug installation, but never knew for sure. But, I believe you are correct. Since I plan on making mine a shooting gun, the sweated breech plug can be replaced with a threaded one I can have made. I need to make sure that the breech end of the barrel is straight with the rest of the bore and does not have what's called a "powder chamber" at the breech, similar to early medieval hand gonnes. Should be interesting. Rick. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
Oppps. Forgot the photos
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]() Quote:
Rickystl, definitely post some pictures of your torador if you get a chance to take it apart. I have a couple of pictures of the torador pistol next to a full sized one, its seems that it was made as a pistol from what I can see. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,623
|
![]()
The breech plug on your Japanese matchlock is identical to mine. Taking the barrel off a Japanese matchlock can be somewhat of a challenge. The whole gun is held together with pins. Not a single screw. Actually, very clever.
Now I'm convinced that the Toridor pistol was made that way. It's definately not a cut-down. In fact, it is very small. I was at the Antique Arms Show this past weekend in Hartford CT. There were some original Japenese matchlock pistols that were actually tiny, derringer size. I still believe these matchlock pistols - including the Toridor - were made primarily as status symbols. There would be no practical use for one. That said, this is still the first and only Indian variation I have ever seen. Very cool pistol. Yes, I plan to take the barrel off my Toridor before the end of the year. It has brass barrel bands so should not be too difficult. Just have to be careful since the stocks of these guns were made in two or three pieces depending on length. I'll take photos as I dis-assemble. Should be interesting. Rick. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
|
![]() Quote:
Another interesting bit of information is that supposedly the original matchlocks supplied by the Portuguese to the Japanese were manufactured in Goa India which the Portuguese captured in 1510, and using the existing arms manufacturing industry that was already there they started making snap matchlocks based on a European design and yet the Indians themselves used a different variety (which I believe was based on the variety used by the Muslim world), this information comes from "The bewitched gun : the introduction of the firearm in the Far East by the Portuguese", by Rainer Daehnhardt, 1994. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Thanks for the info.
I have Raehnhardt's Bewitched Gun= Espingarda Feiticeira and also Peregrinação by Fernão Mendes Pinto, where he narrates his picaresque arrival in Tanegashima and some tragic event with the Mathchlock, but i miss the breech plug episode. I will have to buy "Tanegashima: The Arrival of Europe in Japan" By Olof G. Lidin", even if just the paperback. Thanks again. . Last edited by fernando; 2nd September 2012 at 07:29 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
I have received the book. Excelent work.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|