A RECENTLY ACQUIRED CUP HILT SWORD FOR COMMENTS

midelburgo · 14th July 2022, 01:42 PM

Hello Fernando.
If the "orejas" applied to the pas d'ane is not in "Nueva Ciencia" I have no idea where I read it.
Towards 2005 I read a number of Destreza manuals. It is not in Rada either so far. And Brea (1804) calls them "patillas".
I have been checking the Ordenanzas (1728, 1738, 1762, 1768) and it is not in there. They use "barretas".

Morla (Tratado de Artilleria, second volume, 1817 edition; pages 119-137 deals with swords and sword making, very informative chapter. Toledo factory depended on the Artillery corps) calls them "guardamonte", but that is the whole piece.

Ramirez de Arellano 1767, on Cavalry and Dragoons describes their swords without mentioning these parts.

I have a heavy Main Gauche with a wavy blade, I will check it later maybe its blade comes from a sword as one of the above.

PS. Now I notice. In the drawing of the two fencers fom Thomas Luis, they do not put any finger over the cross (you also do not on the first post). I find taking a cavalry 1728 without passing two fingers over the cross as problematic.

I supose you know about these people:
http://ageaeditora.com/en/livros/

They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

midelburgo · 22nd July 2022, 12:09 PM

I found another couple of Portugese wavy swords. IIRC from a Brazilian collection.

midelburgo · 22nd July 2022, 12:30 PM

I also ordered from AGEA some of the newly edited Portugese XVIIth century fencing manuals. It is close to Spanish Destreza, so it should not a be a surprise swords were also alike. The three on the top (left) were presents from Manuel Valle many years ago.

Next is my navy dagger with a wavy blade, posibly recycled from a sword.

fernando · 22nd July 2022, 03:52 PM

I happen to have a copy of TRATADO DAS LIÇÕES DA ESPADA PRETA; most interesting.
That sword signed by ANTONIO CARVALHO is a rarity. This smith is listed in a precious two volume work by SOUSA VITERBO "A ARMARIA EM PORTUGAL" (1907). The sword shown here had in the other side of the blade EM LISBOA no 1633 and could well be the one present in a Spanish/Portuguese exhibition that took place in Lisbon in 1882 (catalogue Item 313 Page 235).

.

fernando · 22nd July 2022, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... Next is my navy dagger with a wavy blade, posibly recycled from a sword...

Looks like a rather "different" dagger indeed... and an old one. I wouldn't mind having it

midelburgo · 22nd July 2022, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Looks like a rather "different" dagger indeed... and an old one. I wouldn't mind having it

It weights 850grams for some 45cm. The grip is solid iron and the sail is quite thick so it could be used for punching.

It is tinned. And on the tin it was covered in black paint, possibly made with coal dust and boiled hooves (as navy iron guns). The grip was covered in red paint.

I bought it as a theater something. When I got it it was a ball of rust, you could not see the grooves on the blade, much less the designs on the shell. In order to preserve the tin I decided to use electrolysis. That destroyed most of the paint by electrophoresis, the protein moved to the + electrode and the coal was freed in the buffer. It was a confusing mess until I realized what was happening.

The swords above are in Cornwall, in a Manor called Cotehele, not in Brazil.

https://www.nationaltrustcollections...cotehele+sword
https://www.museumsincornwall.org.uk...nwall-Museums/

fernando · 22nd July 2022, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

It weights 850grams for some 45cm. The grip is solid iron and the sail is quite thick so it could be used for punching.

As i said, i wouldn't mind having it

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

...The swords above are in Cornwall, in a Manor called Cotehele, not in Brazil.

.
Now i don't think it is the same as the one staying in Portugal; which is described as a cup hilted version.That makes two examples by this smith, which doesn't prevent them from being rather rare swords.

.

fernando · 22nd July 2022, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese.
http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/

The actual pas d'ane, i believe, but not the cup fixation 'patillas', i guess.

14th July 2022, 01:42 PM	#1
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	Hello Fernando. If the "orejas" applied to the pas d'ane is not in "Nueva Ciencia" I have no idea where I read it. Towards 2005 I read a number of Destreza manuals. It is not in Rada either so far. And Brea (1804) calls them "patillas". I have been checking the Ordenanzas (1728, 1738, 1762, 1768) and it is not in there. They use "barretas". Morla (Tratado de Artilleria, second volume, 1817 edition; pages 119-137 deals with swords and sword making, very informative chapter. Toledo factory depended on the Artillery corps) calls them "guardamonte", but that is the whole piece. Ramirez de Arellano 1767, on Cavalry and Dragoons describes their swords without mentioning these parts. I have a heavy Main Gauche with a wavy blade, I will check it later maybe its blade comes from a sword as one of the above. PS. Now I notice. In the drawing of the two fencers fom Thomas Luis, they do not put any finger over the cross (you also do not on the first post). I find taking a cavalry 1728 without passing two fingers over the cross as problematic. I supose you know about these people: http://ageaeditora.com/en/livros/ They call the pas d'ane, anéis in Portuguese. http://ageaeditora.com/en/nomes-partes-da-espada/ Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 15th July 2022 at 10:11 AM.

22nd July 2022, 12:09 PM	#2
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	I found another couple of Portugese wavy swords. IIRC from a Brazilian collection. Attached Images Last edited by midelburgo; 22nd July 2022 at 12:31 PM.

22nd July 2022, 12:30 PM	#3
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 248	I also ordered from AGEA some of the newly edited Portugese XVIIth century fencing manuals. It is close to Spanish Destreza, so it should not a be a surprise swords were also alike. The three on the top (left) were presents from Manuel Valle many years ago. Next is my navy dagger with a wavy blade, posibly recycled from a sword. Attached Images

22nd July 2022, 03:52 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	I happen to have a copy of TRATADO DAS LIÇÕES DA ESPADA PRETA; most interesting. That sword signed by ANTONIO CARVALHO is a rarity. This smith is listed in a precious two volume work by SOUSA VITERBO "A ARMARIA EM PORTUGAL" (1907). The sword shown here had in the other side of the blade EM LISBOA no 1633 and could well be the one present in a Spanish/Portuguese exhibition that took place in Lisbon in 1882 (catalogue Item 313 Page 235). . Attached Images