my Albacete Dagger

[kronckew]

Just bought this Albacete dagger, at auction, with its perforations and the brass inlay.
Always wanted one of these, and managed to get this one at a decent price.
Any Idea on how old it may be? No dimensions yet. No sheath/scabbard 😢. Edge needs some TLC.
Anyone figured out why many have the perforations/brass inlay yet? Knife has a fair amount of Pointillé decorations...


Thanks in advance for any comments.

[fernando]

Nice. aren't you going to clean it ?



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[Jim McDougall]

Can anyone explain the distinct aperture in these Albacete daggers (of plug bayonet form)?

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Nice. aren't you going to clean it ?
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Hasn't arrived yet from the Auction house.

I'll clean off any active rust/corrosion. Probably sharpen the edge to remove/even up any chips or nicks. Will try to keep any patination on the knife and grip brass.

I Will need to get/make a scabbard for it.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Can anyone explain the distinct aperture in these Albacete daggers (of plug bayonet form)?

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

Oh Nando! I've said a million times not to exaggerate
But regardless....what is this thing in the blade on the DAGGER for ?

[fernando]

You may download this one from the Internet; too heavy to upload here. If you can't read Spanish, use the translating engine ... or just enjoy the pictures.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

You may download this one from the Internet; too heavy to upload here. If you can't read Spanish, use the translating engine ... or just enjoy the pictures.


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Thank you, looks like a good reference!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

Fernando, I wanted to share with you how I came upon this notion that Albacete daggers, at least the type I have referred to which 'look' like plug bayonets, indeed had a certain association.

Probably one of the foremost authorities on bayonets was my friend, the late Roger Evans, who wrote "The Plug Bayonet" in 2002. This man was literally obsessed with this weapon form, and I was familiar with his countless column in "The Armourer" magazine titled "Cold Steel" for years before we began communicating.

In his book (op. cit p.141), he describes how the Spaniard, in their affinity for maintaining tradition often held to their old form miguelet lock smooth bore guns well into the 19th century. This might offer some idea of the reason the plug bayonet maintained its familiar hilt form even long after this weapon had become effectively obsolete.

He notes further (p.141) that "..it is worth noting that the cognomen 'Plug bayonet' , in Spanish 'bayoneta de taco' is a neologism coined by modern Spanish collectors. Traditionally the weapon has been described there only by the more general terms cuchillo de caza or cuchullo de monte (i.e. hunting or mountain knife). "

It seems the 'name game' has virtually no bounds, nor the application of 'weapons lore'.

Regarding the mysterious aperture in the Albacete daggers (p.158-168, in the chapter titled "The Plug Bayonets of Albacete"), which is not an exclusive feature by any means in ALL of them, apparently certainly the 19th century forms with Bowie type blades.

"...at an earlier period, however other blade forms were also favored like that of the knife shown on p.158 with its distinctive punched dot decoration combined with circular holes or slots drilled through the blade thickness into which thin strips of brass were often inserted. These rather strange blade features were purely a traditional form of ornament, although it has been said that they were reservoirs into which poison was smeared with the object of making a wound more deadly. This is probably no more than an example of the kind of romanticized legend that often grows around traditional weaponry. An alternative theory is that the blade apertures with their reed brass like inserts were hunters whistles. Producing any kind of sound by blowing vigorously through these slots seems however to be impossible".

Naturally these IMO, romanticized ideas are on their face, nonsense, just as so many of these in weapons lore, but I wanted to share them here as a matter of reference. It would seem that often features held traditionally on many weapons forms have become vestigial representations of some earlier element, but more often might simply be a distinct ornamentation device.

I probably should have consulted this reference before asking the question, but did not have it at hand at the time. If I can find the reference you have suggested it will be interesting to see its perspective.

[Interested Party]

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

That is most interesting! and I think very much worth adding here, and Richard Burton in his "Book of the Sword" (1884,p.136)noted, regarded among methods of lightening the blade,:
"...a favorite fashion in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the golden age of the sword, was to break the continuity by open work, which allowed free play to the ornamenters hand. It was also supposed to render the wound more dangerous by admitting the air".

These conventions and notions were conveyed into the Philippine archipelago by the Spaniards, who probably brought these from well traveled European weapons 'lore'. It is remarkable how much cross diffusion there was between the European and ethnographic weapons elements in the times of discovery and colonial occupation.
Most of these kinds of suggestions including the idea of poison in blades (possibly from the poison arrow concept?) are not particularly viable, but interesting just the same.

[fernando]

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


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It was not just Albacete, there were many locations which made the 'plug bayonet' form of daggers, which as noted were used as hunting knives well through the 19th c. As with Albacete, there were variations among most, but the plug bayonet style hilt largely prevailed in a traditional sense.
While the term may have been inaccurate, as obviously their original purpose inserted in gun barrels was no longer viable, and the image vestigial, it was the term that aligned these with plug bayonets, which was why I added 'of plug bayonet FORM'.

[kronckew]

Well, it arrived a few minutes ago. It's solid, nothing missing, a bit of red rust, a few small pits. 4 inch grip, 7.25 in. blade, fairly sharp, scrubbed off the red rust & oiled it. Will look for a scabbard to store it in, hopefully like the ones shown above.


I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'.


Last night I saw a firearms video where a man fired a musket, then drew and inserted his plug bayonet to counter a charge from 15 yards by an opponent. or at least tried, the opponent reached him before he could get it in the muzzle. The socket bayonet was developed fairly quickly after to enable firing with the bayonet attached. They also did a VR simulation of a WW1 trench where the real human was confronted by a charging German with just a rifle and then with one with his bayonet attached. They measured stress and fright levels. seems, like the Brits always believed, the bayonet charge scared more and broke the enemy more than just firing muskets.


I've read about a Sultan from one of the independent states in SEA that had a few hundred armed rebels attacking his capital. He called out his Gurkha bodyguard with their rifles. The rebels kept attacking. The Gurkhas were ordered to draw Khukuris, as they closed, the rebels reconsidered and ran away. End of rebellion. People will charge gun, but fear edged weapons, even tho you are more likel;y to survive a bayonet (or khukuri) than a bullet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It was not just Albacete, there were many locations which made the 'plug bayonet' form of daggers...

Of course Jim; only that what we are discussing is the Albacete cuttlery.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... I've read somewhere that the early plug bayonets were just daggers with cylindrical non-tapered grips sized to fit your musket's bore, so they would fit nicely without wobbling like the tapered grip ones we call 'plug bayonets'...

Those had to be the exact size of the barrel bore. One serious issue is that they eventually got stuck and hard to dismount.
I guess the real wobbling hardly occurred with 'current' plug bayonets, assuming the wooden grip has a slowly progressive taper ending with the usual 'bulb'.
Speaking of which, wobling is the reason why the Albacete dagger like yours can not be confused with a plug bayonet. But of course you now that; yet some don't.


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[kronckew]

Fernando: exactly! Nice drawing!

[fernando]

... And how plug bayonets did their job at mounting on end XVIII and beg. XIX century Spanish hunting muskets.


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[David R]

Well, seeing as we have a nice thread going here I will add in my example. No blade piercing, and the grip panelled with brass and "ivory" glued with pitch or resin to the wooden core. Some damage to the grip panels but mainly sound.
The scabbard looks to be very thin wood strips, possibly card, covered in cotton velvet and very thin brass mounts.

[Jim McDougall]

It is a great thread, and these DAGGERS bring discussed are intriguing as they are vestigially recalling the form of much earlier PLUG BAYONETS with the distinctive hilt form, which as well explained by Fernando were designed to fit into the barrel of guns.

Most interesting is that in Spain, notably many examples from Albacete, continued being produced well into the 19th century, despite the fact that rifled gun barrels could no longer accept the hilts into them. The reason for this continued holding to the 'plug bayonet' form of the hilts, even though they were of course used as knives for hunting was the typical Spanish penchant for maintaining traditional styles. This was much the same as the continued use of the cup hilt rapier long after it was considered obsolete with the advent of the small sword.

The traditional presence of vestigial features in weaponry is well known in many cases, with one prime example being the pas d'ane in the small sword which served as a finger guard and securing loop in early small swords. By the end of the 18th century these became smaller but still present though no longer used, but retained as part of the traditional structure of these hilts.

If I may use another analogy beyond weaponry, in the US automotive design has been a key aspect culturally, particularly in the earlier years as design innovation was creative and artistic. Many autos of the 30s and later had features imitating aerodynamic designs and often copied notable elements from airplanes.
Some of the sportier cars had exhaust ports extending out of the hood area imitating those on some fighter planes. In the late 40s, early 1950s, the Buick automobile had a hood design with several 'ports' simply as decorative features, recalling those exhaust ports, but not of course, functional.

These 'vestigial' features, though not at all functional, clearly recalled the earlier auto designs, and by that virtue, the use of aircraft design and structural features in the auto design traditions in earlier years.

When I described a dagger, of plug bayonet 'form', it was noting that by appearance, it vestigially recalled the origins of the hilt design, and while NOT a plug bayonet in actuality, it remained associated in this sense.

I rest my case
On that note, Wayne, this is an OUTSTANDING example of this weapon type! especially witb the brass insert still in the aperture.

[corrado26]

Here some pieces of my former collection of Albacete daggers. They are now back in Spain again. No one would have the idea that the lantern type or the one with the thick grip could be used as a plug bayonet.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I rest my case ...

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

But before you rest and in context Jim, have a look at these Royal "BAIONETAS DE CAÇA, made in Toledo in 1857 and 1863, property of the Portuguese Ducal House of Bragança.


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Oh no! They look like plug bayonets!!!
First I find out the truth about Santa Claus.....NOW I find there is no such thing as an Albacete plug bayonet!!!

[fernando]

Dear Jim, it's all about semantics. Portuguese Baioneta de caça = Spanish Bayoneta de caza = English Hunting bayonet. or ... Spanish Bayoneta de taco = English Plug bayonet (taco is Spanish for plug). All these names point to the same thing .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for your patience in explaining this dilemma in such detail. Semantics indeed play an important part in all of this, and it is amazing to see the literal translation of 'taco' from Spanish =plug.
Naturally as someone who grew up in California with Mexican people, and living now in Texas, the word 'taco' instantly means the fried folded over tortilla with meat and cheese.......a food favorite

Apparently the word itself has numerous meanings in various contexts.

I am adding the pages from Roger Evans' book, and the first two pages of the 'plug bayonets chapter'. It seems that there are of course differences between the peasant knives which in certain degree recall plug bayonet form, but the 'spindle form' as shown by Udo, on p.158 it is noted "..there is no evidence that such knives were ever intended for use as plug bayonets".

This would be in accord with your observation that the Albacete daggers have' nothing to do with plug bayonets'.

However, on this page, Evans notes that TRUE PLUG BAYONETS were made in quantity for hunters by the cutlery trade in Albacete. Production likely began in the 18th century, but peaked in the 1860s and 70s.

It is unclear why these were termed plug bayonets if they were actually daggers, though the spindle grip type obviously could not be used in a gun barrel as Udo has noted. While the Spanish held to their smooth bore miguelet lock guns well through the 19th century, whether they actually used the plug bayonets in original form inserted in the barrel seems unlikely.

[fernando]

Mind you Jim, the subject of hunting bayonets does not run out with the plug system. There was also the socket system, just like military bayonets were. You can find these with princely decorations. I wonder whether this system in hunting bayonets came to life before the plug one, or ran at same time.
From one of my Portuguese books, here are two examples made in France by the end of XVIII century.


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[Jim McDougall]

That is truly interesting Fernando. I had no idea the bayonet had any part in the hunt, though obviously the hunting sword or knife was a necessary implement. From my understanding of the development of the bayonet, the plug was the initial manner of attaching, however the socket developed later obviously to not impair firing of the gun.

[fernando]

In a way, yes; but not forgeting that hunting and military (and countries) had distinct paths when dealing with such problematic.
In any case, even the military only mount the bayonet when instructed to expressly atack with it... and the sae goes for hunters in their context ...if i am not talking nonsense.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

In a way, yes; but not forgeting that hunting and military (and countries) had distinct paths when dealing with such problematic.
In any case, even the military only mount the bayonet when instructed to expressly atack with it... and the sae goes for hunters in their context ...if i am not talking nonsense.


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That does make sense, as once a gun is fired, it is spent until reloaded, and a wounded animal (if your shot was not true) charging at you would be deadly, your only resource would be a bayonet (as in effect polearm with gun length).

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That does make sense, as once a gun is fired, it is spent until reloaded, and a wounded animal (if your shot was not true) charging at you would be deadly, your only resource would be a bayonet (as in effect polearm with gun length).

Or a hunting sword, or knife (the old heavy bladed English type for example). My understanding is that they were both used to finish animals after less than perfect shots. The blade was inserted near where the windpipe meets the heart. Central Americans had a socket dagger that could be mounted to a pole to get more reach. I have even seen late nineteenth century cartridge boar rifles that were designed to use in combination with a hunting sword (an example with Mauser 88 action comes to mind). They had extractors but no ejectors. This made saving your brass to reload easier, but there was no quick second shot. The penalty for bad marksmanship was to wade into the brush after a wounded animal. I always appreciated this ethic. My understanding is boar hunting with dogs uses a very similar wound from a blade to kill the pig. A little off topic but I think still relevant as background to the subject.