my Albacete Dagger

[Jim McDougall]

Can anyone explain the distinct aperture in these Albacete daggers (of plug bayonet form)?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Can anyone explain the distinct aperture in these Albacete daggers (of plug bayonet form)?

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

Oh Nando! I've said a million times not to exaggerate
But regardless....what is this thing in the blade on the DAGGER for ?

[fernando]

You may download this one from the Internet; too heavy to upload here. If you can't read Spanish, use the translating engine ... or just enjoy the pictures.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

You may download this one from the Internet; too heavy to upload here. If you can't read Spanish, use the translating engine ... or just enjoy the pictures.


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Thank you, looks like a good reference!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For the millionth time, Jim; these Albacete daggers have nothing to do with plug bayonets

Fernando, I wanted to share with you how I came upon this notion that Albacete daggers, at least the type I have referred to which 'look' like plug bayonets, indeed had a certain association.

Probably one of the foremost authorities on bayonets was my friend, the late Roger Evans, who wrote "The Plug Bayonet" in 2002. This man was literally obsessed with this weapon form, and I was familiar with his countless column in "The Armourer" magazine titled "Cold Steel" for years before we began communicating.

In his book (op. cit p.141), he describes how the Spaniard, in their affinity for maintaining tradition often held to their old form miguelet lock smooth bore guns well into the 19th century. This might offer some idea of the reason the plug bayonet maintained its familiar hilt form even long after this weapon had become effectively obsolete.

He notes further (p.141) that "..it is worth noting that the cognomen 'Plug bayonet' , in Spanish 'bayoneta de taco' is a neologism coined by modern Spanish collectors. Traditionally the weapon has been described there only by the more general terms cuchillo de caza or cuchullo de monte (i.e. hunting or mountain knife). "

It seems the 'name game' has virtually no bounds, nor the application of 'weapons lore'.

Regarding the mysterious aperture in the Albacete daggers (p.158-168, in the chapter titled "The Plug Bayonets of Albacete"), which is not an exclusive feature by any means in ALL of them, apparently certainly the 19th century forms with Bowie type blades.

"...at an earlier period, however other blade forms were also favored like that of the knife shown on p.158 with its distinctive punched dot decoration combined with circular holes or slots drilled through the blade thickness into which thin strips of brass were often inserted. These rather strange blade features were purely a traditional form of ornament, although it has been said that they were reservoirs into which poison was smeared with the object of making a wound more deadly. This is probably no more than an example of the kind of romanticized legend that often grows around traditional weaponry. An alternative theory is that the blade apertures with their reed brass like inserts were hunters whistles. Producing any kind of sound by blowing vigorously through these slots seems however to be impossible".

Naturally these IMO, romanticized ideas are on their face, nonsense, just as so many of these in weapons lore, but I wanted to share them here as a matter of reference. It would seem that often features held traditionally on many weapons forms have become vestigial representations of some earlier element, but more often might simply be a distinct ornamentation device.

I probably should have consulted this reference before asking the question, but did not have it at hand at the time. If I can find the reference you have suggested it will be interesting to see its perspective.

[Interested Party]

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I don't know how germane this is to the design we are discussing, or how anatomically true the explanation is, but I thought it should be mentioned. This is from a discussion of a cut out on a Philipine blade from tanaruz's thread visayan kris http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28209 post #2 in the Ethnographic forum ".....update on the Visayan kris. Since this was a 'mystery blade' to us(me and my father)-having an 'open groove' in the middle of the blade, we sought the original blacksmith in the hinterlands of Iloilo (and oh, it was scary because of some 'insurgents'). The kris' design was the blacksmith's signature design- to identify it being from his hometown. It was also designed, he said, to lighten the blade and most especially- if 'stabbed into the body (lungs, in particular) it would cause the collapse of the lungs and thus instant death.' "

That is most interesting! and I think very much worth adding here, and Richard Burton in his "Book of the Sword" (1884,p.136)noted, regarded among methods of lightening the blade,:
"...a favorite fashion in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the golden age of the sword, was to break the continuity by open work, which allowed free play to the ornamenters hand. It was also supposed to render the wound more dangerous by admitting the air".

These conventions and notions were conveyed into the Philippine archipelago by the Spaniards, who probably brought these from well traveled European weapons 'lore'. It is remarkable how much cross diffusion there was between the European and ethnographic weapons elements in the times of discovery and colonial occupation.
Most of these kinds of suggestions including the idea of poison in blades (possibly from the poison arrow concept?) are not particularly viable, but interesting just the same.

[fernando]

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, skip the name game for now. In Albacete they made all kinds of knives, even sissors, for centuries. But we all know that the version which practically always comes around, like Wayne's example, is the one with a spindle shaped hilt, just like shown in page 158 of RDC EVANS work, as you mention. And is also the one that beginners and ignorant or fraudulent dealers sell as plug bayonets.

If Wayne doesn't mind, a couple pictures of some Albacete variaties.


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It was not just Albacete, there were many locations which made the 'plug bayonet' form of daggers, which as noted were used as hunting knives well through the 19th c. As with Albacete, there were variations among most, but the plug bayonet style hilt largely prevailed in a traditional sense.
While the term may have been inaccurate, as obviously their original purpose inserted in gun barrels was no longer viable, and the image vestigial, it was the term that aligned these with plug bayonets, which was why I added 'of plug bayonet FORM'.