How does one hold a tulwar? - Page 2

Jens Nordlunde · 16th August 2015, 10:15 PM

Thank you for your answer Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
You always answer in a nice language - and I like that.

I do not think that you are right, can you show me a single battle scene, where the fighters have the indexfinger curled around the quillon?

To me this will be the last post on this thread - and I wish all others to have a good discussion.

Jens

fearn · 17th August 2015, 03:05 AM

Off-topic, but as I found with my reproduction bronze-age sword with the mushroom hilt, the disk forcing you to hold your wrist straight is an ancient design. Those old leaf-bladed bronze swords were probably used for draw-cuts too. Being bronze, they were softer, so having two edges got you through the fight, where you'd only need one edge with steel.

F

Edster · 17th August 2015, 03:19 AM

While its not a tulwar, this Sudanese chap in a crouch fighting stance has his forefinger over the cross-guard of his kaskara. For what ever its worth.

Photo coming soon. Needs to be reduced.

Edster · 17th August 2015, 04:00 AM

Promised photo:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th August 2015, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you for your answer Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
You always answer in a nice language - and I like that.

I do not think that you are right, can you show me a single battle scene, where the fighters have the indexfinger curled around the quillon?

To me this will be the last post on this thread - and I wish all others to have a good discussion.

Jens

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, Thank you for your post; I went through an entire gallery of Indian fight scene paintings last night and I have to report no sightings whatsoever. I think, however, that I am looking in the wrong place as the paintings Moghul etc tend to be two dimensional at best...although beautifully done ....they do not show this phenomena. I think I need to be looking in a Fecht Bok equivalent in Indian arms (swordsmanship) if such an item exists...

Actually Im not fully in agreement about the master in the video since he looked like he knew his stuff...and a lot of these martial systems were passed down master to student and so on... I think the moves are genuine....

The practical fight technique of looped finger over guard seems to me to be a logical progression and whilst not in artworks of the period does turn up in photos as shown at thread...at least. I keep an open mind on this.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

sirupate · 17th August 2015, 10:32 AM

Salaams Ibrahiim,

So you think that what Nidar Singh Nihang is genuine?

Many thanks Simon

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th August 2015, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

Salaams Ibrahiim,

So you think that what Nidar Singh Nihang is genuine?

Many thanks Simon

Yes I do. In particular I looked at his shield and dagger secondary weapon technique which I thought was devastating ..and the punches with the shield to the throat... as well as the reinforced grip with the shield and dagger...Yes I thought he looked every bit a master in those weapons. His slashes and cuts demonstrated with the main weapon were clearly well worked out and his use of the sword strikes to the vital points was typical of any master I have seen... with or without a sword. Apologies for taking this to the martial art theatre as it is not Ethnographics per se but perhaps it can be imagined how these troopers performed a long time ago in action.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 17th August 2015, 04:44 PM

From what I read that man claims to have received direct training from one of the last remaining masters of that martial arts form, which is usually a sign of something fishy. Many in the Sikh community seem to not believe his story and consider his style to not be historical.

sirupate · 17th August 2015, 06:28 PM

Many thanks Ibrahiim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th August 2015, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

From what I read that man claims to have received direct training from one of the last remaining masters of that martial arts form, which is usually a sign of something fishy. Many in the Sikh community seem to not believe his story and consider his style to not be historical.

Salaams Blue Lander~That is quite possible knowing the intricacies of these martial arts and the infighting(scuse pun) that goes on sometimes. I think we just have to take a back seat on these rumours and hope the ethnographics shine through the cracks...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Pukka Bundook · 18th August 2015, 02:48 PM

The only depiction I have seen that shows the finger over the cross, was in H. E. Davidson's book, "The Anglo-Saxon Sword"

Slightly different time and place!

(Of course, rapiers and such are used in this manner, but we all know that.)

I do have a saif, and with the extra guards, it Is very comfortable to hold in this manner, And, the area of the cross where the finger rests is worn smooth, as though I am not the first to try this hold.

Best wishes,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2015, 06:30 PM

It seems to be that this discussion has of course been pretty well covered over the years, and most of the idea of forefinger curled over guard is in my view a mostly 'westernized' assumption quite broadly and consistently resurfacing.
Although the use of forefinger extended around guard was indeed something often employed in western swordsmanship in some cases, hence the development of rings and 'pas d'ane' in rapiers and smallswords for protection of the exposed digit, it does not seem a normal application in standard swordsmanship.
Even though it is well known that the shield or dhal was the method of parry in eastern swordsmanship , and there was little sword to sword contact, it would be, in my opinion, very much against the grain of human nature to place a finger 'outside' the guard (whose design was to enclose or protect the hand...entirely).

In virtually all images seen here photographically, the swords are being held 'at rest' or in non combative poses. Much as the figure posing, the grip or holding of these swords seems postured, therefore no more a measure of actual technique or grip than the most often studio prop arms typically used .

While I have found considerable material noting the significant difference in size of the hands in many of the Indian ethnic groups, it does not seem a constant which would necessarily dictate the proportion of an entire weapon form, with some variation of course possible.

The downturned quillons on many saif (Moroccan, nimcha)as well, became vestigial, just as on the kastane of Sri Lanka and other forms we can certainly note. In Europe, the pas d'ane rings became entirely vestigial on court swords and smallswords .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 15th September 2015, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems to be that this discussion has of course been pretty well covered over the years, and most of the idea of forefinger curled over guard is in my view a mostly 'westernized' assumption quite broadly and consistently resurfacing.
Although the use of forefinger extended around guard was indeed something often employed in western swordsmanship in some cases, hence the development of rings and 'pas d'ane' in rapiers and smallswords for protection of the exposed digit, it does not seem a normal application in standard swordsmanship.
Even though it is well known that the shield or dhal was the method of parry in eastern swordsmanship , and there was little sword to sword contact, it would be, in my opinion, very much against the grain of human nature to place a finger 'outside' the guard (whose design was to enclose or protect the hand...entirely).

In virtually all images seen here photographically, the swords are being held 'at rest' or in non combative poses. Much as the figure posing, the grip or holding of these swords seems postured, therefore no more a measure of actual technique or grip than the most often studio prop arms typically used .

While I have found considerable material noting the significant difference in size of the hands in many of the Indian ethnic groups, it does not seem a constant which would necessarily dictate the proportion of an entire weapon form, with some variation of course possible.

The downturned quillons on many saif (Moroccan, nimcha)as well, became vestigial, just as on the kastane of Sri Lanka and other forms we can certainly note. In Europe, the pas d'ane rings became entirely vestigial on court swords and smallswords .

Salaams Jim, Your well thought through summary is as always well received...and I have thought long and hard...about the Tulvar and the grip using the index finger over the guard. I still think the advantage of looping the finger when in the seated position as in the picture gives a faster draw and in the case of the downward strike is less likely to result in damage to the finger whilst increasing the power.

I was trawling through the web looking at Viking Swords and copied this from http://www.peterjohnsson.com/the-soborg-sword/...Quote "The dynamic properties of the Søborg sword". The positions of the pivot points in grip and blade is an effect of the rotational inertia of the weapon. Distribution of mass affect the dynamic balance of the sword: it determines how will want to behave in motion. The placing of the node of no vibration in the hilt close to and sightly overlapping the cross suggests that it was sometimes used with the index finger wrapped around the guard (this is also seen in period art of men at arms with swords in their hands). Grasping the sword this way would maximize the effect of the dynamic properties of the weapon and provide good control of the direction of the edge in a cut".Unquote.

I thought this was perhaps relevant...and gives some history as to where this looped digit comes from...conceptually at least.

Whilst I am in total agreement with the summary I also point out that the Quillons on the Kastane are not actually Quillons though they look like them they belong to a religious construction from the Iconic crown or Vajra....best viewed in a hugely diverse number of objects at https://www.google.com/search?q=vajr...IVAbgUCh2a-wSA

I don't believe the Kastane Quillons became or developed into functionless things but that they had no function other than a religious construct from the start.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Mercenary · 18th September 2015, 02:10 PM

Hi all!

My old master hold a tulwar with the only normal way: without any Indian "mudra" or the figures of the fingers ))
And his grandfather took their art from ascetic-warriors. So I think it is really correct way. The explanation of it I put here:
http://indianfight.com/indian-technique-with-a-sword/
and here
http://indianfight.com/tulwar/

17th August 2015, 03:19 AM	#33
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	While its not a tulwar, this Sudanese chap in a crouch fighting stance has his forefinger over the cross-guard of his kaskara. For what ever its worth. Photo coming soon. Needs to be reduced. Last edited by Edster; 17th August 2015 at 03:31 AM.

17th August 2015, 04:00 AM	#34
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Promised photo: Attached Images

18th September 2015, 02:10 PM	#44
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	Hi all! My old master hold a tulwar with the only normal way: without any Indian "mudra" or the figures of the fingers )) And his grandfather took their art from ascetic-warriors. So I think it is really correct way. The explanation of it I put here: http://indianfight.com/indian-technique-with-a-sword/ and here http://indianfight.com/tulwar/ Attached Images

16th August 2015, 10:15 PM	#31
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your answer Ibrahiim al Balooshi. You always answer in a nice language - and I like that. I do not think that you are right, can you show me a single battle scene, where the fighters have the indexfinger curled around the quillon? To me this will be the last post on this thread - and I wish all others to have a good discussion. Jens

17th August 2015, 03:05 AM	#32
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Off-topic, but as I found with my reproduction bronze-age sword with the mushroom hilt, the disk forcing you to hold your wrist straight is an ancient design. Those old leaf-bladed bronze swords were probably used for draw-cuts too. Being bronze, they were softer, so having two edges got you through the fight, where you'd only need one edge with steel. F

17th August 2015, 10:32 AM	#36
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Salaams Ibrahiim, So you think that what Nidar Singh Nihang is genuine? Many thanks Simon

17th August 2015, 04:44 PM	#38
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	From what I read that man claims to have received direct training from one of the last remaining masters of that martial arts form, which is usually a sign of something fishy. Many in the Sikh community seem to not believe his story and consider his style to not be historical.

17th August 2015, 06:28 PM	#39
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Many thanks Ibrahiim

18th August 2015, 02:48 PM	#41
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	The only depiction I have seen that shows the finger over the cross, was in H. E. Davidson's book, "The Anglo-Saxon Sword" Slightly different time and place! (Of course, rapiers and such are used in this manner, but we all know that.) I do have a saif, and with the extra guards, it Is very comfortable to hold in this manner, And, the area of the cross where the finger rests is worn smooth, as though I am not the first to try this hold. Best wishes, Richard.

18th August 2015, 06:30 PM	#42
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	It seems to be that this discussion has of course been pretty well covered over the years, and most of the idea of forefinger curled over guard is in my view a mostly 'westernized' assumption quite broadly and consistently resurfacing. Although the use of forefinger extended around guard was indeed something often employed in western swordsmanship in some cases, hence the development of rings and 'pas d'ane' in rapiers and smallswords for protection of the exposed digit, it does not seem a normal application in standard swordsmanship. Even though it is well known that the shield or dhal was the method of parry in eastern swordsmanship , and there was little sword to sword contact, it would be, in my opinion, very much against the grain of human nature to place a finger 'outside' the guard (whose design was to enclose or protect the hand...entirely). In virtually all images seen here photographically, the swords are being held 'at rest' or in non combative poses. Much as the figure posing, the grip or holding of these swords seems postured, therefore no more a measure of actual technique or grip than the most often studio prop arms typically used . While I have found considerable material noting the significant difference in size of the hands in many of the Indian ethnic groups, it does not seem a constant which would necessarily dictate the proportion of an entire weapon form, with some variation of course possible. The downturned quillons on many saif (Moroccan, nimcha)as well, became vestigial, just as on the kastane of Sri Lanka and other forms we can certainly note. In Europe, the pas d'ane rings became entirely vestigial on court swords and smallswords .