ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

The reason for the 'globes' in the pommel will certainly have a different explanation ... perhaps one related with Moor culture.

Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that?

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

I have some doubts about the work of Forton.

In a post I made some time ago, i did write that his magnum opus is in need of a revison/update, but I believe that Forton is now 87yrs old, so this is unlikely happen.

With that said, I think that until something better comes along, we have to go with his views, even if we entertain some doubts, because otherwise we are left with guesses based on personal fancy.

The locking mechanism "de muelle" (spring loaded) is present since the early "Spanish" navajas, but dating the specific carraca mechanism to so early date gives me some of these doubts.

Dating navajas is problematic, but in his book he shows photos of navajas with carracas that he attributes to the 18th century. Their appearance is certainly more primitive than what became more or less normative in the 19th century. I imagine that there may be paintings or drawings from that century that depict these navajas.

The other, more important point about Forton: navajas were presumably known and used in this area since the Roman times. The original navaja from Albacete is attributed to the muslim culture in its stytilistic features. Albacete was founded by the muslim rulers (the city of Al-Basit), and was famous for its muslim knifemakers since that time.

He deals with the origins of the navaja at some length and concluded that the earliest reliably dated folding clasp knife that has been able to find goes back to 1699, but I have to point out that it is quite unlike what we would call a `navaja'.

Having stated this, he goes on to say that the navaja made its appearance in the 17th century, being mentioned by Cervantes as weapons, but these early references do not describe them with any precision, so all we know is that they were folding knives. Well, my take on this is that barber's razors go back to ancient times and also were used violently at times so....

As you rightly point out, folding knives have been around since Roman times, so the birth of the classical navaja, for lack of a better term, is a matter of arbitrary definition based on typology.

For what it is worth, my guess is that there must have been an evolutionary period commencing around 1600, made possible by metallurgical and lockwork advances of the renaissance, and which was given a major impetus by the banning of weapons in Spain, culminating in the classical navaja.

There are many who speculate on an earlier origin of the classical navaja, but the major obstacle to this is that a) there is no hard substantive evidence, and b) fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?

The major problem with the study of the navaja is that it was an instrument that pertained to the illiterate plebes and was treated with disdain by the upper classes. As such its origins go undocumented and are lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Originally Posted by fernando

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

You raise some perplexing questions, and I'll rank them alongside another one; Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca.

What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure.

I think that we have to treat this mystery in the same way as we treat the equally mysterious notch at the heel of Nepalese Kukris, which also defies explanation.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

the levers on the navajas used to lift the lock out of engagement are not that easy to use in the best of circumstances, under pressure of an engagement with another trying to do the same to you would be rather difficult, if not impossible. might be a bit easier on a ring pull, but still....

[Chris Evans]

kronckew

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening....

I have a 6.5" bladed South African specimen in my collection and also two Cold Steels. The Okapi does not have a carraca like feature and the two Cold Steels, one a Kudu and the other an Elan. do have a ratchet, but not in the manner of the Spanish and Italian navajas, as their four and five`teeth' respectively are rounded so as to slow down the opening/closing but do not stop the blade at any one position nor do they emit a strong noise, hardly audible in fact.

Cheers
Chris

[mariusgmioc]

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

[Lee]

Thank you Chris for your attribution of my navaja. The blade is fairly thin (0.06 inch ~ 1.52 mm). The end of the blade first engages the spring at about half open (90 degrees).

- - - - -

Lew had an old 'pull-ring to unlock' clasp knife that he regarded as French, 19th Century. It has been burnished up, but traces of age remain in the crevices. This blade is thicker and the fulcrum more robust, but with just the one stop (it may be seen sticking out in the closed photos below).

Lew must have really liked this style of knife as he also had several variations of the Okapis (both German and South African made) as well as having Kudu knock-offs.

[Chris Evans]

Lee,

That `navaja' looks very French to me, but could have come from anywhere, perhaps Italian.

The `teat' lock was much favoured in France and Italy.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Mariusgmioc,

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

You may well be right, but the French lockable clasp knives did not have them, except those made specifically for the Spanish market, es exemplified by Giordias.

In fact most large French `navajas' exported to Spain in the 19th century did not even have a positive lock, sporting only a robust variation of what we call the slipjoint and which I call a demi-lock.

Also Italians had ratchets on their variations of the large `navaja' but by the late 19th century the `teat' lock took over and the ratchet disappeared.

So what are we to make out off all this? Did safety suddenly become superfluous? And why did some old Spanish navajas have 15 teeth and others only three?

And here's something else to consider: With the old piclock and the later ring lock, the fingers were not threatened when intentionally closing the clasp knife. This danger only materialized with the introduction of the lever release on Spanish knives at the end of the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.
Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that ?...

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail.

" Il s'agit bien d'un couteau de fabrication française, fin XIXème, début XXème. A l'époque, la France produisait beaucoup de couteaux pour l'exportation. Celui ci était destiné à l'Espagne... qui l'exportait à son tour au Mexique ! (d'où l'extrémité en forme de queue de crotale)".

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

…fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?...

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

… Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca...

Good and pertinent point; notwithstanding that, despite the bulk of navajas production being Albacete and Mudela originated, also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period. Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure...

Probably the three teeth were just the start; then came the increasing of its quantity, a sign of traditional 'evolution'. I remember in my youth, people commenting that X person had a six cracks ‘navalha’. So it comes in Forton’s work, as in a copla here shown, where the singer is bragging about his seven muelles (springs/cracks) navaja:

"Mi navaja de Albacete,
que de muelles tiene siete,
Hiere, mata, pincha y raja.
Mi navaja es una alhaja,
si señor."

Originally Posted by kronckew

… the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …


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[fernando]

I went back to the pictures of a XVIII century Mudela navaja i once had. The picture quality is not so famous and the ratchet teeth are somehow worn but, might i make a point in that, once the blade accidently disengages from the main notch, are those little scoops that will prevent it from fully folding ... or are they no more than a noise carraca ?


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[Chris Evans]

Fernando

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.

Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition.

Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

The traditional Spanish fight with knives was with some parrying implement in the off hand, usually a jacket or a hat, and the knife in the other, all in the manner of old rapier play. We know this from paintings, the writings of the fencing historian Egerton Castle and the surviving knife fighting in Latin America.

So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail

.

Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......

Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

No doubt that in the smaller sizes folding knifes were and are considered much more convenient, but even with today's technology the intersection point with fixed blades is somewhere around 4"-5" blade length, dictated by weight and robustness.Yet the navajas of old had blades of 6"- 9 " And then there's the matter of poor speed of deployment with folders, which is a paramount consideration with a weapon.

.....also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period.

Now you have opened a real can of worms and this merits a separate thread!

We have the same problem with the navajas that bear the brand (Spanish: Punzon) of Valero Jun of Saragoza. We don't know whether those knives were made in Spain or France and then sold with the distributor's name stamped onto them. This is remains a well entrenched practice in the cutlery industry, and has been for quite a long time.

If you have Forton's Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion, have a look on pg93 at #100, a photo of a very French looking navaja. Forton made this comment: Navaja tipica del artesano Valero Jun de Zaragosa, sin embargo la marca de su hoja dice `Navajas De Toledo'. Punzon falso? Ejemplo de que los navajeros toledanos sabian hacer a la perfeccion lo que se fabricaba en Aragon?

Sometime ago there was a lively debate on Spanish forums re this topic and the majority opinion was that the knives were made in France and distributed in Spain under the retailers name.

This conclusion was reached by considering that:

a) These knives were identical with those made in France;
b) by the mid 19th century the Spanish cutlery industry was in a very poor shape and imports from France were pouring into the country at the rate of over one million per year (see Forton); And
c) the workmanship was way above of the knives made in Spain at that time.

But of course, this is something else that will not be settled to everybody's satisfaction in a hurry!

Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas?

The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …

This would have been true of common folks, who often had very noisy and showy stand-offs without ever laying a blade on their opponents, and after making a display of bravura reconciled and went on to do other things. But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight; But who knows, it was all a long time ago....

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hello Chris, if i may ...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......

The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas? ...

Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171
[Quoting] The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

We can also see in the chapter dedicated to marks, quite a few from the XIX century FABRICA DE TOLEDO; but as expected no one personal mark of sword smiths, as specimens from so early age are not presently gathered ... or revealed to public.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight ...

Most probably those characters did not elect the noisy ratchet version .


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition...

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle. It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic, in lack of a better argument the effect of the rattle (carraca) serves nothing but dissuassion/intimidation.
One member recalls an anecdote:
"During the uprising on the 2nd May 1808 against the French army, the early morning gathered hundreds of people in Puerta del Sol, as news of various confrontations for Madrid were heating up their moods. Suddenly one only voice among the crowd shouted, Hurray for the French, Viva el Rey, Viva España. The following noise which followed that shout was that of hundreds of ratchets being unfolded one after the other, cri cri cri ... all with the same purpose ..."

Here is the link, for those familiar with castillian:

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/93317...ue-la-carraca/

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the Frech were the enemies. That was the moment when the Spanish people rebelled against the French invaders and fought them with navajas, and tools for livestock management (rejones and garrochas) against the mameluke cavalry.

In the same thread from that forum they mention the intimidating effect of a repeating shotgun beign loaded. Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention. Bad quality of the materials in a mechanism does not invalidate the need of a mechanism, or its utility. I must agree that this mechanism originally has a safety purpose, which in time involved more cultural-oriented purposes. The sound of the ratchet is intimidating against an unarmed agressor, and same is the sound of loading a semi handgun. The potential effect of disuasiveness in this situation is undeniable. It is a way to stop an unarmed agressor. And it works!, but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it. But the the same apply for the case of the fireweapons. And also this could became also as an marketing identifier of this Spanish navajas, along their charcteristic traditional profile. Yes, as Fernando says, it could became a cultural-oriented tradition. But the original function was other.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...

If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes. If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner.

Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171

The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

Many thanks. One problem we have here is that `navaja' in Spanish is a generic term for folding knife and not a specific typology. If it said something like "navaja de muelle", or "navaja de virola giratoria" then we would be on familiar terrain. But otherwise, it could have referred to just simple friction folders, very common to this day in Spain.



Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle.

Thanks for the link. I read that thread and it seems to me that other than the wear caused by the ratchet teeth, they were engaged in the same guessing game as we are.

I found posts 4 and 12 interesting.

Re post 19: Gonzalo is right in that the popular sentiment was against the French; Whereas your translation, as I read it, is ambiguous could be read as let us go over to their side. Something like "let us attack the French....", whilst not a literal translation, would have conveyed the intent better.

It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic,

I am very familiar with this all too common problem, particularly with the cheaper renditions.

A well made navaja ratchet has the peak of the teeth slightly rounded so that it does not cut away the back spring, which by necessity is softer than the blade.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention.

A point very well made!

......but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it.

Succintly put, this is the main problem with this hypothesis.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the French were the enemies...

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes...

Precisely ... and my suggestion comes from the categoric assumption of that French website apparent connoisseur.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner. ...

As so often happens ... both with adopted features as with sticky guests .

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Regarding another query re navajas by Richard, I was looking through my library on this subject and came across a reference by the distinguished Argentinean knife scholar Abel Domenech re the carraca.

Succinctly stated, he opines that the reason for it is lost in time, but may have been intended to provide additional security re accidental closure by providing backup notches to the main notch in case it failed. He attributes the poor quality of the early recycled steels used in making navajas for this added precaution. My own view on this is that the sloppy lockwork seen on too many navajas would also have been a contributing factor.

He adds, that a navaja with carraca can be opened silently by lifting the backspring away from the teeth.

I will add, that as far as cutting oneself whilst closing the knife, this is highly unlikely with old navajas on account the way the knife is usually held during this operation.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

Very understandable, Fernando. "A por los.." is an old castilian expression, not used anymore. Meaning more or less "Let's fall over the French" or, as Chris said, "Let's attack the French". The king referred was not Pepe Botella (José Bonaparte), as he was commonly called by the Spanish population for his excessive inclination toward drinking, but Fernado VII.
Regards

[fernando]

This is somehow raining in the wet but ...
Looks like Mr. Abel Domenech, with all his knowledge, doesn't have a doubteless explanation for the carraca either, as he starts by admiting that, the (real) reason for it is lost in time. That the noise of carracas may be prevented by lifting the backspring is evident; but the basic idea was to produce noise, or one would have bought a silent one, with a palanquilla only. And then i go again wondering whether the safety factor, sustained by some (several) opinions, could not be developed with techniques other than that of containing the said emphatic noise.
But definitely the carraca riddle is a geneal disease.
It is amazing how, in an comprehensice (328 pages) work called INTRODUCCION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, by José Sanchez Ferrer, we may see detailed pictures of navaja construction as well as detailed data on the birth of the navaja, complemented with carraca notes but, the reason for its existance versus the angle of safety ... zero words. However the preciousness in its making as well of its charismatic noise is well pointed out.
The author emphasizes that, having heard of carracas with up to fifteen pinions, the maximum he saw was one with twelve, kept in the National Antropology Museum. And according to what artisan Pepe Exposito told the author, a carraca is well made when the volume of the successive sounds that it emits when unfolding the blade go from minor to greater until the final one is noticed, this one having a different tone, the lodging of the blade in the spring.
We may see in the uploaded pictures that, at least one Albacete master makes the carrava teeth very sharp and inclined; possibly other techniques make round and softer.
Interesting also the author notes on the navaja date of birth, an issue often wondered and discussed.

Here is the ARTICLE and the written parts that i emphasize, so that my lousy translation may be corrected.


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[Gonzalo G]

Thank you for the link, Fer!!

As you said, there is no absolute certainty about the subject. Only more or less reasonable probabilities. Unless we find unequivocal references on the primary sources.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Thanks for posting the material on the navaja. I have that book and several others, but as you say nobody wants to commit themselves to an explanation.

Well, at least Abel Domenech tried.... His opinion re safety may or may not have been the main reason for the adoption of the carraca, but does make some kind of sense.

I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!

As for the date when the navaja appeared, that is also lost in the mist of time because there are no surviving specimens that predate 1699. In any event, dating navajas is very difficult because few had the year of manufacture stamped on them and the best one can do is to correlate the typology with paintings and other descriptions

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

He deals with the origins of the navaja at some length and concluded that the earliest reliably dated folding clasp knife that has been able to find goes back to 1699, but I have to point out that it is quite unlike what we would call a `navaja'.

Having stated this, he goes on to say that the navaja made its appearance in the 17th century, being mentioned by Cervantes as weapons, but these early references do not describe them with any precision, so all we know is that they were folding knives. Well, my take on this is that barber's razors go back to ancient times and also were used violently at times so....

As you rightly point out, folding knives have been around since Roman times, so the birth of the classical navaja, for lack of a better term, is a matter of arbitrary definition based on typology.
Chris

Chris, although I agree with you in many points, I must add that I still have my doubts about the bias or limitations in Forton's work. Or José Sanchez Ferrer's statements about the origin of the production of knives and navajas in Albacete, since more recent investigations has been made on this matter. About the origins of the navajas and since you mention it, Abel Domenech´s book on this subject, shows in page 3 a drawing of a roman navaja which in general terms has the general features of a modern navaja, though probably in a more primitive form and without a locking mechanism. As I understand, the navaja does not have to have a locking mechanism to be considered a navaja, but this a matter of typology. What calls my attention, is the fact that on the documents of the 13th Century from the city of Alcaraz on the province of Albacete, there are clear mentions on the tax imposed to the commerce of navajas. And they use this specific word, "navajas", well before Cervantes. Please see the book by Aurelio Pretel Marín et al, Alcaraz: Del Islam al Consejo Castellano, published by the Instituto de Estudios Albacetenses “Don Juan Manuel”, Alcaraz, Spain, 2013 (it is for free online). On the page 325, you can see the articles taxed by this city, and the navajas are one of them. The tax apply for a dozen of them. Please see for sourself:

http://pandora.dipualba.es/high.raw?...0000005158.pdf

What does it says to you? To me, it says that the subject is not completely investigated. Maybe because those old items disapeared in time or were destroyed, maybe also because this production ended with the christian conquest, as many other valuable Moorish industries (the production of silk, rugs and weapons made of wootz, as indicated on the sources, but it is the matter for another thread). It must be added this quote about the production of edged weapons in Alcaraz:

"En el campo de la artesanía, pocos vestigios nos han quedado que puedan
arrojar luz, pero son los suficientes para hacer ver que debió desarrollarse en
Alcaraz la orfebrería, al menos a finales de siglo. En 1.401 firman juntos un
documento dos plateros de la villa: Alfonso Vel y Juan Ruíz (262). También se
dió allí una temprana tradición de los trabajos de forja y, sobre todo, de
fabricación de cuchillería y armas, en los que destacaban los mudéjares. Un
fragmento mínimo de carta que conservamos (263 ) nos habla de que los moros huidos antes de 1.382, a causa de la presión fiscal, eran "ferreros e cochilleros". Posiblemente, algunos fueran artesanos establecidos por su cuenta, pero es más probable que, en su mayor parte, estos "oficiales" trabajaran por cuenta ajena. Ello explicaría quizás el hecho de que el patriciado alcaraceño solicitase de la Reina que eximiese de tributos de aljama a estos infieles, para que pudieran volver a su labor. De todas formas, la crisis de la comunidad islámica arrastró también, al parecer, la de la cuchillería y armería local. Sabemos que, en 1.393, algunos alcaraceños compraban en Murcia sus 'fojas de armas" (264)."

Pretel Marín, Aurelio, Una ciudad castellana en los siglos XIV y XV (Alcaraz 1300-1475), Instituto de Estudios Albacetenses "Don Juan Manuel", 1978, pág.61.

In a few words, Alcaraz was a center of production of knives; those associated with this production were charateristically muslims and, this production decayed or completely dissapeared because the muslim knifemakers and blacksmiths didn't want to live anymore in this city (or in Spain, basically due the extreme religious intolerance). This also explains why the production of navajas was an item already contemplated in the taxation system already mentioned from the 13th Century.

Now, what kid of navajas were produced? I don't believe they were barber razors. Muslims and christian alike were not adept to shave, as the Romans and Greeks. This is why I believe that the history of the navaja in Spain is incomplete and that the participation of the musim population in this history has been deliberately ignored by past researchers. And that the stylistic features of many traditional Spanish navaja are in fact muslim. There is more information on the subject, demostrating that in the city of Albacete there were muslim knifemakers even in the 15th Century.

REgards

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

On Forton:

You make valid points and I too have picked up on some things in Forton's books that left me scratching my head. But then, I can pretty much say the same about most books that deal with similar subjects.

Writing about old knives is not of mainstream academic interest, and the task usually befalls upon enthuisasts with limited resources who work for the sheer love of it, for there is no financial reward in such research.

I should add that Forton is a Spaniard, who is university educated and as of recent, had a collection of some 500 pieces, considered by many as the best in the world. And this collection has been acquired by the Albacete cutlery museum, so he was much better positioned than most who did, or would venture to study this subject.

So all in all, with whatever perceived faults his works may have, Forton is the best we have until someone comes along and writes something better. However I do not think that this is likely to happen because he gathered all the readily accessible data and it will be very difficult to improve on this, other than write additional footnotes or make minor corrections. And I should add that all the other serious writers on this subject use his works as the point of departure. Of course, what should have happened years ago was a revision of this book, but so far nothing has come to pass.


On the subject of pre 18th century navajas: As I said in an earlier post, the hard evidence is missing and this pushes us into speculation territory.

There was a thread here some five years ago re a paper discussing navajas found in a 17th century galleon. Unfortunately, the author of the paper did not produce any evidence of what we call these days a navaja. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15626 and http://www.melfisher.org/pdf/Navajas...2_Galleons.pdf

Be that all as it may, I did say in my post #32 of this thread that since folding knives have been around since antiquity, what we consider a `navaja' is a matter of arbitrarily identifying it with a certain typology. So, as things stand at present, if what we call a navaja is a folding knife with a more or less large blade, say 5” plus, which can be locked into the open position, then we cannot regress any further back than the 18th century. With all this said, if we include friction folders, then we can probably go back to Roman times.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Well said, Chris. And with all their limitations, I am very grateful to those men who in their free time have written on and shared their love for those items. Without them, we would be in much greater darkness.
Abrazo
G

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!...

Yes indeed, Chris; specially handled by two so knowledged members ... and resistant to brain pickers like this humble servant of yours . Surely the info you have exchanged about this subject is of interest to many others, this thread having already reached almost a thousand views.
Despite these knives being an obsolete "tool" in practical terms, they surely constitute a rather interesting collectible item.
I regret having got rid of my few examples; the only one i have left is this palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. Note the care had by the "smith" to replicate all components with their indicated mterials ... and accept my appologies for this impertinent inclusion .

.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Y...palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. ...
.

nice little one. if you ever come to the UK, carrying that one would be illegal to carry without a good reason and could get you a few years in jail as, due to the locking mechanism it is considered an 'offensive weapon'. a man recently was arrested because he had one of similar size on his key chain 'without good reason' the judge was a bit lenient and only gave him a large fine, and a few months in jail.

as a real antique offensive weapon, it fits in here of course.