A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

and no one said "dawaj, dawaj...pashli, pashli tovarischi..."? :-)))

rough translation: hurry up, dear friends...


must have been very interesting...specially to learn about the pro and cons about it
Also makes me think or sounds like our "change of minds " in this forum are quite short and simple.

Nevertheless I think it is a beautiful piece / ochen krasivo ! Love the 2nd picture !

[Ren Ren]

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-)))

As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

[Saracen]

In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

[Ian]

Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

[ariel]

Double

[ariel]

My guess based on seeing multiple examples of modern tourist Indian or Afghani daggers on e-bay have several easily noticeable features: general appearance of the blade is very impractical; decorations are produced by methods not requiring hard work ( deep etching is very popular); armor-piercing tip is puny and obviously weak. Post #7 is a classic example.

I am sure other Forumites have their own sets of features permitting quick attribution as modern touristy fake.

Old armor-piercers all without exception are Zirah Bouks by definition, swords and daggers. Human anatomy is such , that penetration of it by 3-4 “ in almost any place reaches a vital organ.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

so you were young lads "fighting" skirmishes like Georgy Konstantinovich at Khalkhin Gol ?

[ariel]

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))
Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar.


Saracen,
Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger.
I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by gp

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

You are absolutely right But it was not even "fighting" skirmishes of Khalkhin Gol. It was more like "Battle of Stalingrad"

By the way, despite our current disagreements, in that "battle" I was "in the same trench" with аriel

[ariel]

And for the life of me, I cannot even recall which side I was on:-)

Perhaps it made no difference: to steal a line from George Bernard Shaw’s pithy take on economists, if all the arms experts were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion.

Valid dating and attribution have to rely on the inscriptions and on physical signs of the object (patina, rust, wear, evidence of old repairs, techniques used, historiography etc.).

Gut feelings may be deceiving: there are too many instances of parallel development and/or mutual origin. That’s why G.C. Stone misread Minasbad for Parang Nabur and Tirri claimed N.African origin of Laz Bicagi etc. I have shown here Khyber knife and Bauernwehr with identical blades.

Only physical facts can serve as valid evidence of dating and origin. The rest of argumentation can force us to take a wrong turn.

In retrospect, does the dagger with pierced details belong to Afghanistan or Crimea is still uncertain to me. Sorry. We were laid end to end ……

[mahratt]

I agree 200% with these words:

Originally Posted by ariel

Valid dating and attribution have to rely on the inscriptions and on physical signs of the object (patina, rust, wear, evidence of old repairs, techniques used, historiography etc.).

But! Paying attention to the inscriptions, you should always remember the "Assad Allah Syndrome". We can find the name of this master on blades made from the 16th century to the end of the 19th century. And if you trust the name on the blade, you can make a mistake and date the item incorrectly.

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Paying attention to the inscriptions, you should always remember the "Assad Allah Syndrome". We can find the name of this master on blades made from the 16th century to the end of the 19th century. And if you trust the name on the blade, you can make a mistake and date the item incorrectly.

Quite right! That is why extremely prestigious blade attribution contests are held in Japan, the author's signatures on which are closed.

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Of course, forging famous names is a very attractive ploy to up the price.
But that is exactly why I mentioned long list of physical features that had to be looked at first.
A pretty primitive blade " signed" by Assadullah or even a first-rate blade " signed" by him and carrying gold-inlayed , calligraphically perfect date of 1845 :-) provide 100% guarantee of fake. This is beyond any argument.

Classic example of it are several gorgeous shashka/saber blades with the name of "His Imperial Majesty armourer Geurk" and written dates circa 1830's from highly reputable private collections and world-famous museums were proven to be made not by Geurk, but likely by his descendants or even assistants simply because Geurk died 1820-1824.

But by and large dates and signatures are genuine, especially when and if they are not capable of bringing any substantial profit.

This is why I am really interested in francantolin's dagger. It is obviously so simple that any hope of spurious dating and attribution is not going to up its price by more than $10:-)

No faker would spend any time and effort forging a blade with a complex profile and engraving it by hand with long cartouches for such a pittance.

But the fully remastered handle serves as a strong argument of its rather substantial age.

[mahratt]

A solid age... Is it a lot or a little? Half a century (50 years) is quite a respectable age. The handle of an object that was used could have been replaced a year after it was made, if it was damaged

[ariel]

OK
Got a translation from my ex-fellow , who is Pakistani from Pakhtunkhwa. He is fluent in Urdu and Pashto but did not specify the lanuage of the inscription. Judging by the translation ( see below) it did not matter: just a name and standard Quranic sentences.

“ Arabic script in first picture is pretty clear

First line is
Starting in the name of Allah, the most beneficent and the most merciful

Second line is
Allah’s help has arrived and victory is near .

Second picture is
First line (Name with caste) actually this is a Shiite caste

Muhammad Muhammad Ali Boroujerdi

Second line is Islamic way of writing date
Big line on right is place for 2 digits for date
Second small line is space for writing month
Months are usually written as letters rather than digits
Then it is likely 1309 because 0 is not omitted rather in Arabic 0 is just a dot .

۱۳۰۹
1309 “

I. e. 1891 in Gregorian.

I think that provides an answer to Francantolin and closes all speculations about “1970”, “1950” , tourist production, American soldiers etc.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK

“ Arabic script in first picture is pretty clear

Second line is Islamic way of writing date
Big line on right is place for 2 digits for date
Second small line is space for writing month
Months are usually written as letters rather than digits
Then it is likely 1309 because 0 is not omitted rather in Arabic 0 is just a dot .

۱۳۰۹
1309 “

I. e. 1891 in Gregorian.

I think that provides an answer to Francantolin and closes all speculations about “1970”, “1950” , tourist production, American soldiers etc.

'

I have to disagree as the above explantion on numbers and date is actually speculation and thus unacceptable...

Please allow me to explain:

I have lived in several Arab countries for years, and never was in a year a number omitted, also not in calligraphy writting. Nor on metal objects from coins, jewelry , etc.

nevertheless one does not need to take my word for it, as I am no scolar of the language and gramma...

so I consulted an Arabist who confirmed that both in modern as in classic Arabic all 4 numbers should be present.
Specially as there is sufficient room available...

So we are back to square one I am afraid or actually we need to continu the search back to mahratt's last statement as the date explanation is null and void ...

[mahratt]

I don't want to upset the author of the topic, who is probably happy now, but, as I wrote earlier, the inscriptions on the blade cannot be singled out separately from the subject itself. There is a Russian proverb: On the fence it says "Huy" (male sexual organ in Russian argot), but if you look behind the fence there is firewood. ... I hope the allegory is clear?
So I'll say it again. Don't get hung up on the inscriptions. Especially if they are made on non-traditional blades.

[francantolin]

Helli,
Thank's a lot Ariel to you and your Pakistani friend for the translation !
Sorry for the late reply
For the date ''mystery'' ,
It can perhaps be a day and a lunar month,
The 13th of 9th ramadan month
, first of what are called the white days

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...EuJTHyrY1CYdcC

( strange on a blade and pure speculations marhratt, I know ; ) just a new add )

PS: Soon come 10 1 , Achora day

Kind regards

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Helli,
Thank's a lot Ariel to you and your Pakistani friend for the translation !
Sorry for the late reply
For the date ''mystery'' ,
It can perhaps be a day and a lunar month,
The 13th of 9th ramadan month
, first of what are called the white days

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...EuJTHyrY1CYdcC

( strange on a blade and pure speculations marhratt, I know ; ) just a new add )

PS: Soon come 10 1 , Achora day

Kind regards

My friend, instead of believing the fantasies of our esteemed Ariel, you had better read my book on the weapons of Afghanistan. Then you will understand that until the 20th century, all weapons made by local craftsmen in Afghanistan were traditional.

[francantolin]

Thank you,
But I always pay attention to dogmas with books...

[Richard G]

I believe Afghanistan has intermittently used a Solar Hijri calendar, known as the Shamsi Hijri calendar.
In this case 1309 = 1930.
That should keep everybody happy.
Regards
Richard

[gp]

looks like some have also been smoking here what we knew as Black Afghan in the late 60ies and 70ies in Europe....and caused some nice dreams
I can advise when reading books to change to Carlos Castaneda "The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge"....
But that does not answer the issue addressed sadly...

Jokes aside and let's be serious and get away from the "perhap"ses... or I believe or mix knowledge with assumptions or subjective interpretations. ..
as assumption are not facts.. but according to my CEO the mother of all f-beep- ups
Like the Stones sing... only my imagination that's runnin away wizz me....
Or.. you cant alway want wot you get...
But lets stick to facts and knowledge . (In this case the book referred to already by Mista M) which avoids also the bickering as addressed by uncle Ian.

.
Many here are from the West but when I sometimes read about f.i. explanation on Islamic items, unfortunately hardly facts come up but hearsay or "I think"...
Even saw the Nizari Isma'ili Shia founder and leader Hassan i Sabbah (the old Man on the Alamut Mountain!) being connected to Sunni and Sufi Bosnia.... And raki was not even involved.
We must carefully either refrain from commenting or seeks answers from or with real scolars


You can also easily address the al Azhar University in Cairo Egypt or the University of Sarajevo Bosnia ( Oriental Studies Institute Arabic, Turkish and Persian )
and gues wot.... not only two pearls of wisdom and knowledge but ...they speak & write English, French, German ... better than most of us

I said it before...but you can take a horse to the water but can't make it drink....

[werecow]

EDIT: Never mind, I kind of feel like I'm poking at a hornet's nest.

[gp]

Originally Posted by werecow

EDIT: Never mind, I kind of feel like I'm poking at a hornet's nest.

No you have not,I think some interesting points are being made if one doesn’t take it personal.
Only thing I meant personal is for folks to check facts first with available sources....
which is actually quite easy

as f.i. talking 'bout Holland: if one wants to know about Bestevaêr....we simply go to A'dam Scheepvaartmuseum or de Stichting Michiel de Ruyter ☺☺☺

[Ian]

I would like to remind folks that these forums are for a wide group of collectors and other interested parties, not all of whom are experts or have particular knowledge of what they are interested in. Opinions and ideas are welcome. If someone expresses an idea or opinion that is off the mark, that's okay. We all live and learn.

I would also ask those who have some expertise to be patient and not chastise others who express their ideas and opinions, albeit mistaken. Sometimes we can get carried away with scholarly accuracy and forget that not everyone here is a scholar of the subject.